Trayvon Martin

[Balta1701]

So this dealer is making thousands of illegal sales and no one will shut them down? Wow. Any other criminal enterprises on that level operate in the open and don't get shut down?

My guess is that they're selling them legally to "straw purchasers" or something like that who then sell them in personal deals that don't require documentation or background checks to people who take them into the city. The sales are legal in the state but basically it's the equivalent of being an arms dealer in a civil war, you follow the law enough and ignore the carnage you create. If anyone asks questions you then employ good lawyers and start screaming about how gun rights are being violated.

[Texsox]

That would be my guess as well. Although it could be equally valid to write that

 

"Straw buyers are walking into that store and purchasing their guns there because of price, location, . . . " You wrote it in a very pejorative manner. I believe, perhaps naively, in the American right of innocent until proven guilty. Even when it is inconvenient.

 

 

[Texsox]

And those sales can be traced to the original buyer and those straw buyers need to be prosecuted.

[Balta1701]

If it was just the straw buyers that were the problem, there wouldn't be a trend where 1 shop has 50000% more guns used in crimes sold in its facility than the average gun shop, the buyers would spread out. There's clearly a reason why they're using those particular shops.

 

That's the correct number by the way.

[Texsox]

I tend to agree with you. But without knowing the prices, the store location, there could be other factors at play. I'll bet more graffiti artists buy their paint at WalMart than some local store. Does that mean WalMart knowingly allows them to buy paint, or they just sell a crap load of paint?

 

Regardless, my main point stays, punish criminals not honest citizens. And criminals in this country must be convicted of a crime. I'm not really comfortable with closing companies down with anecdotal evidence, no matter how compelling.

[Balta1701]

I tend to agree with you. But without knowing the prices, the store location, there could be other factors at play. I'll bet more graffiti artists buy their paint at WalMart than some local store. Does that mean WalMart knowingly allows them to buy paint, or they just sell a crap load of paint?

 

Regardless, my main point stays, punish criminals not honest citizens. And criminals in this country must be convicted of a crime. I'm not really comfortable with closing companies down with anecdotal evidence, no matter how compelling.

In Knoxville TN, and I believe here as well, there are "nuisance" laws, where they've shut down businesses without the business committing a crime specifically because many crimes are committed there. They were regularly used against bars that often had people arrested for selling drugs, bars that commonly had fights, and a "glassware/smoking supplies" dealer that was basically selling all the legal accessories that go along with marijuana use but never actually selling the weed themselves. Those are actually fairly useful tools for law enforcement because it means that business owners can't just "look the other way" when they know things are regularly happening on their property, they need to have some level of control over it. You can legitimately quarrel with how they're used, but this is quite standard in the parts of the country where I've lived.

[Texsox]

In Knoxville TN, and I believe here as well, there are "nuisance" laws, where they've shut down businesses without the business committing a crime specifically because many crimes are committed there. They were regularly used against bars that often had people arrested for selling drugs, bars that commonly had fights, and a "glassware/smoking supplies" dealer that was basically selling all the legal accessories that go along with marijuana use but never actually selling the weed themselves. Those are actually fairly useful tools for law enforcement because it means that business owners can't just "look the other way" when they know things are regularly happening on their property, they need to have some level of control over it. You can legitimately quarrel with how they're used, but this is quite standard in the parts of the country where I've lived.

 

Good point. The difference I see in your examples is in the case of the bars, crimes were happening in the business. In the gun shop examples straw buyers were then reselling the guns elsewhere, not on the premises. I agree that law enforcement should be investigating the crap out of that gun dealer, but that should result in finding violations.

 

[Milkman delivers]

The guns are purchased legally and then "stolen". So, not much of a chain of ownership.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Milkman delivers

[Texsox]

The guns that are purchased legally and then "stolen". So, not much of a chain of command.

 

That is a problem and really conflicts with my usual punish the guilty not the victim. I really wish there was a way of sorting the two. I do think there should be some sort of limit. Common sense comes into play. No one has a gun stolen every week for years. While not perfect and I'd have several complaints about it a limit on how many guns you can own at one time and each stolen gun reduces your total allowed would be interesting to explore. I really dislike punishing innocent people but it gets frustrating not being able to sort the guilty from the victims.

[Chisoxfn]

If it was just the straw buyers that were the problem, there wouldn't be a trend where 1 shop has 50000% more guns used in crimes sold in its facility than the average gun shop, the buyers would spread out. There's clearly a reason why they're using those particular shops.

 

That's the correct number by the way.

I'm not a gun person but I presume the argument of stop selling at stores that sell to criminals will mean that any gun store in an area with a high crime rate will close (than as those stores close, they'll buy at the stores next closest and we'll see those stores crime rates increase, etc, until we basically have decided that you can't own guns in empovershed areas (since those typically are the areas with the highest gun crime rates). I'm fairly certain that sort of policy won't end up working.

[Texsox]

I'm not a gun person but I presume the argument of stop selling at stores that sell to criminals will mean that any gun store in an area with a high crime rate will close (than as those stores close, they'll buy at the stores next closest and we'll see those stores crime rates increase, etc, until we basically have decided that you can't own guns in empovershed areas (since those typically are the areas with the highest gun rates). I'm fairly certain that sort of policy won't end up working.

 

I'm not an expert either but if you remember to those days when you were underage, there are stores that were easier to buy beer from when you were underage and the rest. Maybe some of these stores are also like that. Bring in some reasonably close document and check out.

 

There is probably a way to look at anomalies in the area.

[Balta1701]

I'm not a gun person but I presume the argument of stop selling at stores that sell to criminals will mean that any gun store in an area with a high crime rate will close (than as those stores close, they'll buy at the stores next closest and we'll see those stores crime rates increase, etc, until we basically have decided that you can't own guns in empovershed areas (since those typically are the areas with the highest gun crime rates). I'm fairly certain that sort of policy won't end up working.

Being in a high crime area would come no where near explaining those trends especially since they're all outside of the state of Illinois. The guns are not being used anywhere near the area they're being purchased, they're bought out of state and then wind up as evidence in the city of Chicago.

[Y2HH]

Being in a high crime area would come no where near explaining those trends especially since they're all outside of the state of Illinois. The guns are not being used anywhere near the area they're being purchased, they're bought out of state and then wind up as evidence in the city of Chicago.

 

Does any of this surprise you, or for that matter, anyone else here? There are plenty of problems the government can solve, but they don't, because stupid people elect stupid politicians, who make stupid moves. Our government just put Ted Cruz in charge of space and science. That's like putting oil in charge of water. We have a government, on both sides mind you, in charge of the technological direction of this country, and many of them are in the 80's or 90's and barely understand what the f*** technology is, yet we, the stupid people, continue to elect them, and then wonder why we have issues such as this.

[Texsox]

Being in a high crime area would come no where near explaining those trends especially since they're all outside of the state of Illinois. The guns are not being used anywhere near the area they're being purchased, they're bought out of state and then wind up as evidence in the city of Chicago.

 

You still need to prove that the dealer is doing something wrong. A lot of drunk drivers drive through White Castle, but that doesn't really have anything to do with White Castle. As a scientist you understand the difficulties in proving causation. You can't just look at A and B and immediately say with 100% certainty that A caused B.

[Balta1701]

You still need to prove that the dealer is doing something wrong. A lot of drunk drivers drive through White Castle, but that doesn't really have anything to do with White Castle. As a scientist you understand the difficulties in proving causation. You can't just look at A and B and immediately say with 100% certainty that A caused B.

But if you knew that was true, you'd put your enforcement right outside of that location, right?

 

The state of Illinois can't do that because the states next door are enabling criminal activity within their borders.

[Texsox]

But if you knew that was true, you'd put your enforcement right outside of that location, right?

 

The state of Illinois can't do that because the states next door are enabling criminal activity within their borders.

 

It would be like Wyoming police busting a shop in Colorado because too much pot was finding it's way there. You have to be breaking a law in that jurisdiction.

 

Which why I am in favor of unified national laws regarding guns. Hitting state lines when travelling shouldn't cause people to break out a legal encyclopedia to be in compliance. This also includes sillier things like motorcycle helmet laws, etc.

[southsider2k5]

George Zimmerman reportedly was involved in a shooting Monday afternoon in Florida ---> http://nbcchi.com/kRWm817

[EvilMonkey]

George Zimmerman reportedly was involved in a shooting Monday afternoon in Florida ---> http://nbcchi.com/kRWm817

Though it said he was shot. Saying 'involved in' implies that he had something to do with it other than being a target.

[Texsox]

Same guy who claimed last year that Zimmerman threatened to kill him. Seems like bad blood between these two.

[Balta1701]

Same guy who claimed last year that Zimmerman threatened to kill him. Seems like bad blood between these two.

The good news is they both have guns so as long as no bystanders are hit this will just take care of itself eventually and as taxpayers we just have to pay for all the police responses.

[Texsox]

The good news is they both have guns so as long as no bystanders are hit this will just take care of itself eventually and as taxpayers we just have to pay for all the police responses.

 

Tex circles the bait, swims away, comes back, smells it a second time, and opens his mouth

 

Soon they will both lose that right and the world will be safe once again.

[Balta1701]

Tex circles the bait, swims away, comes back, smells it a second time, and opens his mouth

 

Soon they will both lose that right and the world will be safe once again.

[EvilMonkey]

The good news is they both have guns so as long as no bystanders are hit this will just take care of itself eventually and as taxpayers we just have to pay for all the police responses.

Unless there is overtime involved there are no direct expenses related to this incident to worry yourself over. They are paid regardless of where they are at, the cars are running whether they are driving to this call or the donut shop.

[Texsox]

 

[Balta1701]

I don't remember which murdered african american thread Tamir Rice was discussed in (the kid murdered in Cleveland for having a toy gun within like 1/4 second) but apparently in Ohio it's possible for a group of state citizens to petition a court to file charges and order an arrest without the assistance of a prosector and a group is filing such a request with the court tomorrow.