Balta1701 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2015 -> 09:03 PM) I don't remember which murdered african american thread Tamir Rice was discussed in (the kid murdered in Cleveland for having a toy gun within like 1/4 second) but apparently in Ohio it's possible for a group of state citizens to petition a court to file charges and order an arrest without the assistance of a prosector and a group is filing such a request with the court tomorrow. A judge heard this complaint and has ruled that there is probable cause to try this police officer for murder and to try his partner for reckless homicide and dereliction of duty. The case would still have to somehow be referred downwards to a prosecutor to handle it, it's basically unprecedented in Ohio for a case to be pushed this way so it's a little unclear what all the details will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 A "Muslim Free" gun shop in Florida is selling $50 prints of and auctioning an original painting of a Confederate Flag done and signed by George Zimmerman. I can't do any better than the headline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2015 -> 08:04 AM) A "Muslim Free" gun shop in Florida is selling $50 prints of and auctioning an original painting of a Confederate Flag done and signed by George Zimmerman. I can't do any better than the headline. Someone will have to explain for the 2nd Amendment protects our Freedom of Speech. You can't just shoot someone for talking crap to you. Nevermind. It's from GZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 What it means is that by being allowed to own guns you could stand up to the govt if they tried to restrict your speech. I guess the 14th got lost somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 18, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) What it means is that by being allowed to own guns you could stand up to the govt if they tried to restrict your speech. I guess the 14th got lost somewhere. The above is about the only reason I'd ever own a gun (that I can think of). I've thought about buying some and locking them away purely for that very reason (yeah...call me weird). The fact that the registrations, etc, exist, kind of suck though (good in one way, but bad in the way that again, if the govt wanted to...they'd know exactly who has them and how to get them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 The government isn't some kind of corporation (yet) and is instead made up of real people. While the legislators are not exactly regular people, the folks who would come to your house to take your guns or whatever else are, in fact, very regular people (I'm thinking soldiers here) and the kind who would be least likely to comply with orders to take people's weapons or whatever else away from them. This is not to mention the fact that it seems quite unlikely that our society would ever agree upon anything enough to put up an effective armed rebellion, even on a small scale. I think you'd be more likely to need weapons to defend your homeland from foreign enemies than you would the government. In that case, the government would presumably be happy to distribute weapons as needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/u-s-and-world/9433747-story http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/18/ohio-man...ooting-burglar/ Interesting case on the duty to retreat, defense of life/property debate. You're in your home. Two intruders come in and point a gun at you, trying to rob you. You pull your gun out, they run out of the house. You chase. You shoot at them outside of the home, in your yard (allegedly). One is killed and found a couple houses away. Now you're being charged with voluntary manslaughter. How many people here convict him (obviously the full set of acts aren't available yet, so based on this fact pattern alone). I think if he shot the intruder from his own yard, and the intruder was shot within or within close proximity to his property, there's no way in hell i'd convict him. If he ran outside, the guy was running 2 houses away and he shot, I still probably wouldn't, but it's much more of a 50/50 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmteam Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:01 PM) You're in your home. Two intruders come in and point a gun at you, trying to rob you. You pull your gun out, they run out of the house. You chase. You shoot at them outside of the home, in your yard (allegedly). One is killed and found a couple houses away. Now you're being charged with voluntary manslaughter. How many people here convict him (obviously the full set of acts aren't available yet, so based on this fact pattern alone). Assuming that by "they run out of the house" you meant they run out of the home and continue to run off/away from the property (as opposed to run outside the home, but stay on the property and continue to engage the homeowner), I convict. They were running away. The threat was over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 09:01 PM) http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/u-s-and-world/9433747-story http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/18/ohio-man...ooting-burglar/ Interesting case on the duty to retreat, defense of life/property debate. You're in your home. Two intruders come in and point a gun at you, trying to rob you. You pull your gun out, they run out of the house. You chase. You shoot at them outside of the home, in your yard (allegedly). One is killed and found a couple houses away. Now you're being charged with voluntary manslaughter. How many people here convict him (obviously the full set of acts aren't available yet, so based on this fact pattern alone). I think if he shot the intruder from his own yard, and the intruder was shot within or within close proximity to his property, there's no way in hell i'd convict him. If he ran outside, the guy was running 2 houses away and he shot, I still probably wouldn't, but it's much more of a 50/50 for me. Tough one. I'd be inclined not to convict someone shooting a burglar, but I'd have to know more about the locations/distances. From the look of this picture, http://www.cleveland.com/akron/index.ssf/2...n_shooting.html, these houses are really far apart, and that one is really far back from the street. For the deceased to be 2 houses away seems to me like the shooter possibly gave chase, which would make it a lot more questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (farmteam @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:11 PM) Assuming that by "they run out of the house" you meant they run out of the home and continue to run off/away from the property (as opposed to run outside the home, but stay on the property and continue to engage the homeowner), I convict. They were running away. The threat was over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 If you apply the "Stand your ground" standard, where a "reasonable person could feel threatened", I think you come to the opposite conclusion. They've already demonstrated a willingness to commit a crime, even if they're running away you could judge them to be a threat and it is not required that you retreat from that confrontation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's not retreating if they're the ones running away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Yeah but they have guns and they already pointed them at you. What's to stop them from running way for a minute and then coming back? It's not like this guy waited 20 minutes or even shot at them 100 yards down the road. It reads like they run, he went after them, still on his property, and shot as they were running. This is a perfect example of heat of the moment decisions of this guy v. what we all think he should have done in hindsight. How can we really judge him when he's probably scared s***less, running on adrenaline after getting a gun pointed at him by two guys that invaded his home? Throw in this guys loser life criminal history and it's not like he killed a nun. When you commit an armed robbery, being shot before/during/shortly after the attempt should be an appreciated risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The fact that the two intruder's pointed a gun at you in the first place, makes me side with the shooter. If they were trying to rob you (but hadn't pulled a gun), you pulled a gun, and they hightailed, I'd have a different perspective. But with them pulling a gun on you, you have fully been threatened and now are defending your turf (even with them running, I'd have a hard time not standing my ground cause I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing those people pulled a gun and for all I know are going to come back later and off me. All that said, that situation won't happen to me, cause I'd literally pee myself and not have the option of pulling a gun since I don't own one. That said, the one thing that confuses me is that, even if I did own a gun, I wouldn't be ballsy enough to pull my gun while two people are already pointing a gun at me...so that part of the story seems fishy to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 02:32 PM) Yeah but they have guns and they already pointed them at you. What's to stop them from running way for a minute and then coming back? It's not like this guy waited 20 minutes or even shot at them 100 yards down the road. It reads like they run, he went after them, still on his property, and shot as they were running. This is a perfect example of heat of the moment decisions of this guy v. what we all think he should have done in hindsight. How can we really judge him when he's probably scared s***less, running on adrenaline after getting a gun pointed at him by two guys that invaded his home? Throw in this guys loser life criminal history and it's not like he killed a nun. When you commit an armed robbery, being shot before/during/shortly after the attempt should be an appreciated risk. The thing that confuses me is why the hell do you pull your gun when two guys have guns pointed at you at point blank. In that situation, I'd cower, pee and poop myself all that the same time and tell them take whatever they want just don't hurt me. I'd figure if I pulled my gun, I'd be dead, so in the scenario where they take what they want, maybe I don't get shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:32 PM) Yeah but they have guns and they already pointed them at you. What's to stop them from running way for a minute and then coming back? It's not like this guy waited 20 minutes or even shot at them 100 yards down the road. It reads like they run, he went after them, still on his property, and shot as they were running. This is a perfect example of heat of the moment decisions of this guy v. what we all think he should have done in hindsight. How can we really judge him when he's probably scared s***less, running on adrenaline after getting a gun pointed at him by two guys that invaded his home? Throw in this guys loser life criminal history and it's not like he killed a nun. When you commit an armed robbery, being shot before/during/shortly after the attempt should be an appreciated risk. That's where it's no longer "stand your ground" or self defense. He gave chase, including chasing them out of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 09:37 PM) That's where it's no longer "stand your ground" or self defense. He gave chase, including chasing them out of the house. I'd understand an objection to him chasing them down the street and shooting then, but surely you're not suggesting he can't even fire as they're still inside his house, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:35 PM) The thing that confuses me is why the hell do you pull your gun when two guys have guns pointed at you at point blank. In that situation, I'd cower, pee and poop myself all that the same time and tell them take whatever they want just don't hurt me. I'd figure if I pulled my gun, I'd be dead, so in the scenario where they take what they want, maybe I don't get shot. I agree, that's the part that confuses me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:41 PM) I'd understand an objection to him chasing them down the street and shooting then, but surely you're not suggesting he can't even fire as they're still inside his house, right? I don't know what the law actually is, but I don't *think* it'd allow you to chase them through the house shooting at them as they try to flee, and I don't think you should be legally allowed to, either. Once they're out of the house? Absolutely not. They're gone. They're leaving. edit: the Fox story isn't clear on whether he actually chased them out of the house and into the yard or not. Edited August 20, 2015 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:37 PM) That's where it's no longer "stand your ground" or self defense. He gave chase, including chasing them out of the house. But that's not a literal term. Are you saying if you take a step of one inch towards the person you're shooting you'd be in violation of the SYG law, because you're not literally standing on the same ground you were when you felt threatened? There's a grey area there, which is why this is an interesting case. To me just outside of your home and while still on your property - just after someone pointed a gun at you and could easily turn around and shoot you - is still SYG and not retreating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:45 PM) But that's not a literal term. Are you saying if you take a step of one inch towards the person you're shooting you'd be in violation of the SYG law, because you're not literally standing on the same ground you were when you felt threatened? There's a grey area there, which is why this is an interesting case. To me just outside of your home and while still on your property - just after someone pointed a gun at you and could easily turn around and shoot you - is still SYG and not retreating. No, to me it's more about actually starting to give chase and following them. "Stand your ground" means you don't need to try to remove yourself from the situation before using deadly force, but it also doesn't mean you get to prolong the situation by chasing them after they're fleeing. Those guys can't easily turn around and shoot you if you're not following them out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Looks like Ohio is a duty to retreat state. And generally "yards" are part of your property when it comes to the castle doctrine. That'd be pretty f***ed up if he goes to jail for killing a deadbeat criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 04:47 PM) No, to me it's more about actually starting to give chase and following them. "Stand your ground" means you don't need to try to remove yourself from the situation before using deadly force, but it also doesn't mean you get to prolong the situation by chasing them after they're fleeing. Those guys can't easily turn around and shoot you if you're not following them out the door. But how can you say that if he had not given chase they would have hung out in the front yard or tried to come back? Again, that's the problem looking at these situations totally removed. We can't possibly know how he was feeling/thinking, and it's pretty s***ty to place on him the expectation of perfect judgment in such a situation. And not even perfect judgment - the potential life or death decision of letting the guys leave and then hoping they don't come back. Let's ignore the law and talk principles - do you really think this guy should go to jail for decades for killing this guy? Edited August 20, 2015 by Jenksismybitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 20, 2015 -> 09:44 PM) I don't know what the law actually is, but I don't *think* it'd allow you to chase them through the house shooting at them as they try to flee, and I don't think you should be legally allowed to, either. I'd expect that these various castle doctrine laws would definitely allow you to fire at an armed intruder in your house, regardless of whether or not they happened to be running towards a door. Straight up, if you're a lethal threat in my home, I think you're fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 This dude needs to get a haircut and a suit ASAP http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/ak...vasion-shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts