Trayvon Martin

[Balta1701]

Whys that?

Because you always believe the testimony of the shooter since dead men tell no tales.

[mr_genius]

Because you always believe the testimony of the shooter since dead men tell no tales.

 

There's other witnesses and evidence. the whole thing has backfired on the Obama media

 

 

Edited March 27, 2012 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

There's other witnesses and evidence. the whole thing has backfired on the Obama media

Clearly there aren't other witnesses to the actual initiation of te conflict. So yea, youre taking the shooter at face value and it's impossible to prove you wrong because the other witness is dead.

[Y2HH]

I elaborated a bit on why...I'm just trying to think about the situation logically. It's all speculation, but I'm just trying to see how a guy, who was the supposed aggressor, who had a loaded gun, would allow this kid to get right up on him...as the aggressor, it'd be HIM trying to get up on the kid, not the other way around. Something just doesn't add up with this in a logical sense to me...

 

a) If Martin had gotten away, and he supposedly did based on the 911 call that he "lost him" and was going back to his car...how did they end up in a scuffle?

b) If Zimmerman was the aggressor, with a gun, how'd the kid get close enough to hit him/wrestle him to the ground?

c) Witness says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, see B...how'd that happen to a gun toting aggressor? I just can't see it in my minds eye...

 

I'm probably missing something important here, so please if you see something, point it out...but I just can't comprehend how he got in such close quarters to a guy who the media has painted as someone that was looking to shoot and kill this kid...people who have guns that want to kill someone, don't let them get close enough to wrestle them down and possibly get disarmed and have their own weapon used against them...it just doesn't add up to me.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Because you always believe the testimony of the shooter since dead men tell no tales.

 

There is actually something too this people want to dismiss...but it's reality. It's why they say if you shoot a home invader, make sure they're dead. And why? For the exact reason you stated.

[Balta1701]

I elaborated a bit on why...I'm just trying to think about the situation logically. It's all speculation, but I'm just trying to see how a guy, who was the supposed aggressor, who had a loaded gun, would allow this kid to get right up on him...as the aggressor, it'd be HIM trying to get up on the kid, not the other way around. Something just doesn't add up with this in a logical sense to me...

 

a) If Martin had gotten away, and he supposedly did based on the 911 call that he "lost him" and was going back to his car...how did they end up in a scuffle?

b) If Zimmerman was the aggressor, with a gun, how'd the kid get close enough to hit him/wrestle him to the ground?

c) Witness says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, see B...how'd that happen to a gun toting aggressor? I just can't see it in my minds eye...

Just like I came up with a bunch of scenarios earlier, you can come up with a dozen other scenarios. Kid could have been hiding and Zimmerman spotted him. Zimmerman could have threatened him with the gun and he jumped at him o prevent him from taking the shot. Same deal. Zimmerman was wounded, clearly there was a struggle, and if there was a struggle, then in any scenario you come up with, under that law, Zimmerman has the right to kill.

 

The only way to avoid this mess is to have the law require him to retreat, and to get the guy with the concealed gun off the streets in the first place.

[Y2HH]

Just like I came up with a bunch of scenarios earlier, you can come up with a dozen other scenarios. Kid could have been hiding and Zimmerman spotted him. Zimmerman could have threatened him with the gun and he jumped at him o prevent him from taking the shot. Same deal. Zimmerman was wounded, clearly there was a struggle, and if there was a struggle, then in any scenario you come up with, under that law, Zimmerman has the right to kill.

 

The only way to avoid this mess is to have the law require him to retreat, and to get the guy with the concealed gun off the streets in the first place.

 

Also very true, good point.

[mr_genius]

uh oh, just saw in interview with one Zimmerman's neighbors. The neighbor was black, by the way. He said that Zimmerman was not racist, and Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white.

 

poor Obama media. the story has now completely fallen apart.

[Y2HH]

uh oh, just saw in interview with one Zimmerman's neighbors. The neighbor was black, by the way. He said that Zimmerman was not racist, and Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white.

 

poor Obama media. the story has now completely fallen apart.

 

I thought you were a huge Obama guy? Or are you being sarcastic here sans green text? :/ Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

 

Edit: And I thought everyone knew Zimmerman was Hispanic for a while now...?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

uh oh, just saw in interview with one Zimmerman's neighbors. The neighbor was black, by the way. He said that Zimmerman was not racist, and Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white.

 

poor Obama media. the story has now completely fallen apart.

Wtf? Seriously, you didn't bother to know any of those details before?

[Y2HH]

And not to defend Obama, but him speaking out on this and bringing attention to a poorly written law that exists in 20 states, seems prudent. The law is too vague for my liking...and it needs to be done away with, as does any law stating you have to retreat.

 

The only thing Obama said I didn't care for is the crap about that's how his son would have looked or something...as if that has anything to do with anything...I didn't quite understand the need to say that. That aside, Obama did nothing wrong.

[StrangeSox]

Yea, really.

 

To be perfectly honest, when the story first broke, it looked like a complete screw up due to a vague law, where Zimmerman was the aggressor. This was mostly perpetuated by the media, because it's the story they wanted to be true, so it's the story they seemed to run with, and then a lot of people hopped the bandwagon, because it was free publicity to do so. And it may end up being true...who knows.

 

BUT...as time went by and more detailed emerged, it seems like it may be the opposite based on the accounts of witnesses...if Zimmerman was the aggressor, and had a gun, I find it HIGHLY dubious that Martin ended up on top of him, hitting him, etc...as the witness claims to have seen. Armed with a gun, if Zimmerman was the aggressor, I find it unlikely he'd let Martin get close enough to him if he was ready for it. The only way I see it happening is if he surprised him...which is what Zimmerman's story is...and logistically, trying to think about the situation, it seems likely...as said, if I had a gun and he approached me...knowing that law existed (as Zimmerman did), he'd have shot him right then and there...no way he'd let the guy get up on him and start hitting him. Just seems unlikely. Possible, sure...just unlikely. If this Zimmerman was looking to shoot and kill this kid, I think he would have without taking the chance of letting him right up on him, as is what happened based on witness accounts.

 

I do not think he started out intending to shoot Martin. I think The most likely case is he confronted Martin, perhaps physically, and Martin started to defend himself from this weirdo stalking him. Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked and shot martin. This is corroborated by all witness testimony except for Zimmerman. We dint have evidence that he actually did return to his car.

 

[StrangeSox]

And not to defend Obama, but him speaking out on this and bringing attention to a poorly written law that exists in 20 states, seems prudent. The law is too vague for my liking...and it needs to be done away with, as does any law stating you have to retreat.

 

The only thing Obama said I didn't care for is the crap about that's how his son would have looked or something...as if that has anything to do with anything...I didn't quite understand the need to say that. That aside, Obama did nothing wrong.

Obama was asked, he didn't bring it up. But his statement personalized it while being very minimal.

[StrangeSox]

I thought you were a huge Obama guy? Or are you being sarcastic here sans green text? :/ Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

 

Edit: And I thought everyone knew Zimmerman was Hispanic for a while now...?

[Y2HH]

 

I honestly don't know... heh

[Y2HH]

I do not think he started out intending to shoot Martin. I think The most likely case is he confronted Martin, perhaps physically, and Martin started to defend himself from this weirdo stalking him. Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked and shot martin. This is corroborated by all witness testimony except for Zimmerman. We dint have evidence that he actually did return to his car.

 

The only thing corroborated by witnesses was that Zimmerman was getting punched...the rest of what you wrote before that is pure speculation. Zimmerman attempted to follow him based on the 911 call, and lost him...I believe that's all part of the 911 recording, was it not? At that point, the only story we have is Zimmermans...as there is no other living witness for that time frame. The only witness that saw anything, if anything, makes it sound like Martin was the aggressor...as all he saw was Zimmerman yelling for help while Martin was on top of him punching him.

 

Any/all other witnesses cannot confirm anything with any certainty other than they heard voices, and it's doubtful they know who's voices they heard in such a situation. As a matter of fact, the only witness that saw anything says it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

The only thing corroborated by witnesses was that Zimmerman was getting punched...the rest of what you wrote before that is pure speculation. Zimmerman attempted to follow him based on the 911 call, and lost him...I believe that's all part of the 911 recording, was it not? At that point, the only story we have is Zimmermans...as there is no other living witness for that time frame. The only witness that saw anything, if anything, makes it sound like Martin was the aggressor...as all he saw was Zimmerman yelling for help.

 

Any/all other witnesses cannot confirm anything with any certainty other than they heard voices, and it's doubtful they know who's voices they heard in such a situation.

The girl was on the phone with martin up until zimmerman confronted him.

 

It is speculation what happened, but I've seen nothing to indicate an increasing likelihood that martin was the initial aggressor.

[Y2HH]

The girl was on the phone with martin up until zimmerman confronted him.

 

It is speculation what happened, but I've seen nothing to indicate an increasing likelihood that martin was the initial aggressor.

 

Absolutely...there is no evidence who was the initial aggressor...and that's kind of the problem. BUT, it seems highly unlikely that if Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, armed with a loaded gun, that he'd let a smaller, younger "kid" get him to the ground...kinda seems off to me. Sounds to me if Zimmerman was the trigger happy gun toting stalking aggressor the media painted him as being, he'd have just shot that kid before any of that happened.

[StrangeSox]

Absolutely...there is no evidence who was the initial aggressor...and that's kind of the problem. BUT, it seems highly unlikely that if Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, armed with a loaded gun, that he'd let a smaller, younger "kid" get him to the ground...kinda seems off to me. Sounds to me if Zimmerman was the trigger happy gun toting stalking aggressor the media painted him as being, he'd have just shot that kid before any of that happened.

I would doubt he confronted him with his gun drawn. Imagine a "hey boy what you doin here" while grabbing his arm. Martin then punches him and a fight ensues. Martin has the upper hand until Zimmerman pulls his gun and shoots.

[mr_genius]

I would doubt he confronted him with his gun drawn. Imagine a "hey boy what you doin here" while grabbing his arm. Martin then punches him and a fight ensues. Martin has the upper hand until Zimmerman pulls his gun and shoots.

 

might as well add a Dragon and a Maiden to that fairy tale.

[Texsox]

They both had reason to believe they were in danger, yet neither one really gets out of the way.

[Soxbadger]

It really doesnt matter, Martin is also protected by stand your ground law (or self defense).

 

If an armed individual is following me, and I believe my life is being threatened, dont I, under Florida law, have the right to try and disarm the person following me?

 

The problem for Zimmerman still is escalation of force.

 

It is reasonable to hit someone who has a gun to protect yourself, is it reasonable to shoot someone who is unarmed?

 

Most people knew these facts to start, it really changes nothing.

[Soxbadger]

Y2hh,

 

There is absolutely evidence who the initial aggressor is.

 

Zimmerman called 911 and said that he was following Martin, following someone while armed, would be considered an aggressive act to most reasonable people.

 

If someone is following you with a loaded weapon, do you feel they are being aggressive?

 

My answer is yes.

[StrangeSox]

They both had reason to believe they were in danger, yet neither one really gets out of the way.

Martin was in no danger until he was stalked by the dude with a gun.

[iamshack]

It really doesnt matter, Martin is also protected by stand your ground law (or self defense).

 

If an armed individual is following me, and I believe my life is being threatened, dont I, under Florida law, have the right to try and disarm the person following me?

 

The problem for Zimmerman still is escalation of force.

 

It is reasonable to hit someone who has a gun to protect yourself, is it reasonable to shoot someone who is unarmed?

 

Most people knew these facts to start, it really changes nothing.

This is my question...how far can you go to defend yourself if someone is following you with a gun? What if he verbally threatens you? Do you have to wait for him to actually attack you? Is your only legal right at that point just to try and flee?