Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) Y2hh, There is absolutely evidence who the initial aggressor is. Zimmerman called 911 and said that he was following Martin, following someone while armed, would be considered an aggressive act to most reasonable people. If someone is following you with a loaded weapon, do you feel they are being aggressive? My answer is yes. This would be a good point, but the flaw in this argument would be that the victim would have had to know he had a gun...otherwise it was just some guy wondering what the kid was doing around there. You are presuming he knew Zimmerman was armed in order for your argument to hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 08:40 PM) This is my question...how far can you go to defend yourself if someone is following you with a gun? What if he verbally threatens you? Do you have to wait for him to actually attack you? Is your only legal right at that point just to try and flee? How do you know they have a gun?! Most people wandering the streets don't have guns...and I don't assume they have guns...so it's more reasonable to assume people arent armed with guns all the time than it is to assume they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 y2hh, Of course, and that is why a dead victim is a double edged sword. If Im the prosecutor Zimmerman is a wannabe cop who has his gun proudly holstered for all to see (and if the facts dont support that) or he was brandishing a gun in the open, trying to imitate the police he watches on tv shows. If Im Zimmerman's lawyer, obviously I argue Martin had no idea he had a gun, and if it wasnt for Zimmerman's quick reaction getting his gun, Martin could have killed him. Who knows what will happen. I just hate the law, so Im just hoping that this causes people to realize that untrained citizens should not be walking around with guns trying to play police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 08:50 PM) y2hh, Of course, and that is why a dead victim is a double edged sword. If Im the prosecutor Zimmerman is a wannabe cop who has his gun proudly holstered for all to see (and if the facts dont support that) or he was brandishing a gun in the open, trying to imitate the police he watches on tv shows. If Im Zimmerman's lawyer, obviously I argue Martin had no idea he had a gun, and if it wasnt for Zimmerman's quick reaction getting his gun, Martin could have killed him. Who knows what will happen. I just hate the law, so Im just hoping that this causes people to realize that untrained citizens should not be walking around with guns trying to play police. They sure as hell shouldn't be, you won't get an argument from me on that. But I don't hate the law...advocating anarchy isn't a great idea either. An anarchist society would last about 8 minutes before it turned on itself and the people ate each other alive. What I'm not a fan of is vague laws riddled with possible loopholes and grey areas...which this law reeks of. Edited March 27, 2012 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) I thought you were a huge Obama guy? Or are you being sarcastic here sans green text? :/ Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. Edit: And I thought everyone knew Zimmerman was Hispanic for a while now...? Don't mind him. He started following this story about 3 hours ago and apparently has all of the scoops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Y2hh, Could have been clearer, I hate this Florida law. I dont hate all laws, and most of my hate is because they are written so badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 09:21 PM) Y2hh, Could have been clearer, I hate this Florida law. I dont hate all laws, and most of my hate is because they are written so badly. No argument from me on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 07:43 PM) How do you know they have a gun?! Most people wandering the streets don't have guns...and I don't assume they have guns...so it's more reasonable to assume people arent armed with guns all the time than it is to assume they are. Yeah, but he supposedly called his girlfriend and was fearful that this guy was following him...if you think some sinister character is following you enough to actually tell someone that you are frightened, I think you are certainly considering they might be armed. Again, he may not have known for sure, but apparently Zimmerman was doing enough to frighten him that he told his girlfriend (supposedly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 10:15 PM) Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and figure that Martin had no clue whatsoever that Zimmerman had a gun. If he was aware, I'm sure he wouldn't have allowed Zimmerman to get to it while he was on top of him and slamming his skull into the cement. he wasn't "slamming his skull into the cement" but keep up the top-notch commentary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 11:10 PM) That is something I seriously doubt. A person who is that entrenched in his neighborhood watch would almost certainly not act physically. He'd much more likely ask the kid questions to both get information/make him feel uncomfortable enough to leave the area. But at the same time, he also chose not to follow the rules of the "Neighborhood watch" program. The rules say don't follow, don't confront, just call the police. He did that, and then muttered something about how these guys always get away before hanging up the phone and deciding to defy those rules, knowing he was armed and figuring he'd give this one a good scare and that'd show all the other ones that they needed to stay out of his neighborhood. Pick your psychological explanation, you can plausibly back up both cases. Again, this is why having people roaming the streets with guns is the problem. Without that, he most likely doesn't follow a person he deems suspicious/threatening and he actually follows the rules and suggestions of the 911 operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 What does smoking pot have to do with anything? Some of the most brilliant, peaceful people in the world smoke pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:03 AM) The police seem to believe it. The witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. But hey, let's continue to take the word of the two-bit pot head (probably drug dealer) over the witnesses, police findings, and neighborhood watch captain whose own black neighbors claim is not racist. Yes, but you are ignoring the bestest witness of them all, apparently Martin's girlfriend was on the phone with him, and heard everything so clearly that she can tell you exactly what both people said leading all the way up to the confrontation. So now the technical forensic side of me kicks in and I ask what kind of phone did he have? The reason I ask is because modern Android phones and iPhones have automatic background noise cancellation built into them...so unless he had her on speakerphone the entire time, she didn't hear anything intelligible from anyone other than Martin. But let's not let technical facts get in the way of a good "over the phone" witness that has no reason to be biased or anything. Oh, and we all know how clear speaker phones are when used outdoors... I agree with Milkman...jumping to conclusions and basing all of our assumptions on what we WANT versus what may have actually happened is awesome fun. Edited March 27, 2012 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 09:08 AM) Well, I'm a firm believer in being able to carry a concealed weapon. In this situation, it turned out well for the innocent neighborhood watch member when he was attacked by a punk kid who was suspended from school for possession. I believe the ability to carry a concealed weapon makes criminals think twice about robbing/attacking anyone they please. And if it leads to more violence, so be it. It's better than allowing them free rein, which they clearly have. I'm just going to hope you're being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 06:09 AM) He had it at school. A lot of people drink as well, but not many stand-up individuals are keeping a flask in their backpacks. Case closed. Treyvon likely went around randomly beating people up every day because he smoked pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:03 AM) The police seem to believe it. The witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. But hey, let's continue to take the word of the two-bit pot head (probably drug dealer) over the witnesses, police findings, and neighborhood watch captain whose own black neighbors claim is not racist. Yeah, we already covered why those articles are a pretty terrible representation of what the witnesses have actually said. Since no one actually saw who started the incident, no witness is making a claim on who the aggressor was. The only one making those claims is Zimmerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:10 AM) Case closed. Treyvon likely went around randomly beating people up every day because he smoked pot. Pot heads are some of the most violent people on the planet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) Since he was in a neighborhood he's unfamiliar with, perhaps Martin assumed he was being stalked by a rival gang. That, plus the weed, would make anyone scared. It's fun making assumptions based on what I want to believe. I can see why everyone is doing it. I can appreciate the point you are trying to make here, and I think it's a good one, Milk. We honestly have no idea what happened, but obviously it is beginning to appear as though Martin wasn't the helpless victim he was originally presumed to be. Regardless, the application of the law doesn't change, nor does the fact that Zimmerman was still stalking people while armed with a concealed weapon, merely for the fact that Martin was a black kid walking through a gated community. As more and more facts reveal themselves, I wouldn't be shocked if it becomes apparent they were both complete fools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:05 AM) What does smoking pot have to do with anything? Some of the most brilliant, peaceful people in the world smoke pot. That doesn't mean everyone who smokes pot is brilliant and peaceful. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't call most of them brilliant...and I've known plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I have to respond to whomever it was that said "shoot to wound" earlier... that is never the smart path, nor is it remotely practical. First of all, when you shoot someone, that legally will be considered deadly force - period. Regardless of where you shoot them. This is consistently upheld law. Second, shootings at close range with pistols are notoriously full of missed shots, because the nature of the scenario and the weapon make accuracy very difficult. One of my favorite pieces of trivia, is that the FBI did an analysis of shootouts at a range of less than 10 feet, and found that 4 of the first 5 shots MISS. Aiming for anything other than center mass is absurd, since most people have a hard time even hitting that at close range (for a wide variety of reasons). QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:05 AM) What does smoking pot have to do with anything? Some of the most brilliant, peaceful people in the world smoke pot. More importantly, people who are under the influence of marijuana are actually much LESS likely to be violent. I doubt he was high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 09:12 AM) The best part is that when Whitey (Hispanicky?) gets off, there will be no apologies or support for the poor guy. Everyone will just drop it and act like it never happened. Actually, this is probably totally untrue. This guy is going to get off and he's probably going to have a "Casey Anthony" level reputation for at least 10% of the country for the rest of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 06:03 AM) ...and neighborhood watch captain whose own black neighbors claim is not racist. What amazing proof that is. I've met plenty of racist people in my life that will act nice to their one black neighbor or co-worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:08 AM) Yes, but you are ignoring the bestest witness of them all, apparently Martin's girlfriend was on the phone with him, and heard everything so clearly that she can tell you exactly what both people said leading all the way up to the confrontation. So now the technical forensic side of me kicks in and I ask what kind of phone did he have? The reason I ask is because modern Android phones and iPhones have automatic background noise cancellation built into them...so unless he had her on speakerphone the entire time, she didn't hear anything intelligible from anyone other than Martin. But let's not let technical facts get in the way of a good "over the phone" witness that has no reason to be biased or anything. Oh, and we all know how clear speaker phones are when used outdoors... Just yesterday I was speaking with someone on the phone and could easily hear both background noise (machinery running in the background) and people talking around him. We both have relatively new Android phones. His phone was not on speakerphone. Later, on another call, it was on speakerphone and outdoors and it was clear enough to speak with several people. There are no "technical facts" that are getting in the way here. If you're going to automatically discount her statements based on presumed bias, then you can't believe anything about Zimmerman's statements, either, and we're back to having zero information on what happened between Zimmerman hanging up with 911 and the witness seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 All drug users must be murdered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 27, 2012 -> 08:15 AM) It sure takes away from his credibility. Guy currently on suspension for possession or neighborhood watch leader. Any other circumstances in the world, and everyone would be inclined to believe the latter. But the latter may or may not have also muttered a racial slur, so the druggie is now still 8-years-old and a foot shorter with no reasonable ability to knock a grown man down and slam his head into the ground. Credibility of what? Martin is claiming anything other than having a bullet wound in the chest that killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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