Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

That changes the fact that Zimmerman's head was slammed into the ground?

 

Ground =/= cement. Zimmerman's injuries are minor, not what you'd expect if someone was beating your head into the cement.

Edited March 27, 2012 by StrangeSox

[BigSqwert]

His English teacher, Michelle Kypriss, reported him as being "an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness." and said that he "was not a violent or dangerous child" and "not known for misbehaving."

 

via

Edited March 27, 2012 by BigSqwert

[Y2HH]

I can appreciate the point you are trying to make here, and I think it's a good one, Milk.

 

We honestly have no idea what happened, but obviously it is beginning to appear as though Martin wasn't the helpless victim he was originally presumed to be.

 

Regardless, the application of the law doesn't change, nor does the fact that Zimmerman was still stalking people while armed with a concealed weapon, merely for the fact that Martin was a black kid walking through a gated community.

 

As more and more facts reveal themselves, I wouldn't be shocked if it becomes apparent they were both complete fools.

 

I'm going to have to go ahead and call this out...because this isn't about race, and I'm sick and tired of people trying to make it about race.

 

Fact: Zimmerman is Hispanic, NOT white.

Facts: A black kid was wandering around a gated community where other minority's lived, including other black people. Zimmerman's neighbors in said community are black. So, I beg the question, why are people continuing to try making the kids skin color an issue?

 

Would it be a valid issue if it was a gated "whites only" community? Yes. But...and get this...it wasn't.

 

So let's stop pretending it was.

[BigSqwert]

Thanks, and same here.

 

And another point with the gated community. Seeing as it was a gated community and this guy is a neighborhood watch leader, wouldn't have a pretty fair idea of who lives there? This kid and his father were staying at a friend's house or something to that effect, correct? So seeing a kid in a hooded sweatshirt walking around that you know isn't a resident, wouldn't that make you even the slightest bit suspicious? Of course not, as nobody here has even the slightest racist bone in their bodies. Was this the middle of the day, as well?

No need to project your own issues onto others.

[BigSqwert]

Since Sqwert knows some pot heads, it's OK to assume that it means nothing negative for this guy/case. But since Zimmerman's own neighbors do not think of him as racist, it's not viable evidence that he isn't

When did you turn into an 85 year old angry white man?

[Y2HH]

Just yesterday I was speaking with someone on the phone and could easily hear both background noise (machinery running in the background) and people talking around him. We both have relatively new Android phones. His phone was not on speakerphone. Later, on another call, it was on speakerphone and outdoors and it was clear enough to speak with several people. There are no "technical facts" that are getting in the way here.

 

If you're going to automatically discount her statements based on presumed bias, then you can't believe anything about Zimmerman's statements, either, and we're back to having zero information on what happened between Zimmerman hanging up with 911 and the witness seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman.

 

Ok, so you're telling me that noise cancellation doesn't exist now? You are flat out, technically and factually...wrong. While you can hear chatter in the background, it's NOT clear, and it's NOT loud enough for you to claim you can hear clearly. The technology prevents that. That's why the technology exists. And, if it doesn't exist on your phone, you may have a "new" phone, but it's either old tech or running a very old OS.

 

And yes, there are technical facts getting in the way here. Noise cancellation is real. It actually exists.

[StrangeSox]

We honestly have no idea what happened, but obviously it is beginning to appear as though Martin wasn't the helpless victim he was originally presumed to be.

 

Why? He could have been into all sorts of trouble back in his home town, but none of that has any bearing whatsoever on this situation.

[StrangeSox]

The credibility that everyone is heaping on him as a little kid trying frantically to get home with his Skittles and away from a psychopath against whom he'd have no ability to beat the piss out of.

 

It's pretty clear that Martin did have the ability to beat the piss out of this guy, and was. If Zimmerman started the confrontation, then he deserved it and he is guilty of killing this kid.

[Balta1701]

Also, "not known for misbehaving" must not include being suspended for drug possession

Defying the orders of a 911 operator is ok though.

[StrangeSox]

Fact: Zimmerman is Hispanic, NOT white.

 

Hispanics can be racist! Also, you can be Hispanic and white!

[Balta1701]

You lived in Chicago. I'm sure you're aware that every minority youth that is killed was an honor student or currently getting his life turned around.

I really do hope you're trolling here to make a point, btw. If you are, it's somewhat effective, I'll grant you.

[StrangeSox]

Defying the orders of a 911 operator is ok though.

 

I don't know what authority if any 911 operators have. They're typically just call center employees.

[Y2HH]

I don't know what authority if any 911 operators have. They're typically just call center employees.

 

They have none.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm going to have to go ahead and call this out...because this isn't about race, and I'm sick and tired of people trying to make it about race.

 

Fact: Zimmerman is Hispanic, NOT white.

Facts: A black kid was wandering around a gated community where other minority's lived, including other black people. Zimmerman's neighbors in said community are black. So, I beg the question, why are people continuing to try making the kids skin color an issue?

 

Would it be a valid issue if it was a gated "whites only" community? Yes. But...and get this...it wasn't.

 

So let's stop pretending it was.

Sorry, but, this is just a huge leap to make. First, your "FACT" that Zimmerman is hispanic is irrelevant, or possibly even makes it MORE likely. This is a sad fact in Chicago, and I am sure elsewhere, that Hispanic and Black communities often do not get along. Look at the way neighborhoods are here. So the fact that he is Hispanic does nothing to reduce the chance this was racially motivated, and may even increase it.

 

Here is the reality - you cannot possibly know if Zimmerman's judgment was colored by color, nor can anyone else. There is no "pretending" here, except by anyone who thinks they KNOW it was, or KNOW it wasn't, racist.

 

One thing for damn sure - regardless of whether or Zimmerman or Martin turned out to be the aggressor during the physical confrontation, the confrontation itself was caused by Zimmerman acting beyond what he reasonably should have been in his role. Zimmerman caused the situation to occur.

 

 

[iamshack]

Thanks, and same here.

 

And another point with the gated community. Seeing as it was a gated community and this guy is a neighborhood watch leader, wouldn't have a pretty fair idea of who lives there? This kid and his father were staying at a friend's house or something to that effect, correct? So seeing a kid in a hooded sweatshirt walking around that you know isn't a resident, wouldn't that make you even the slightest bit suspicious? Of course not, as nobody here has even the slightest racist bone in their bodies. Was this the middle of the day, as well?

Yeah, he was visiting his father's fiancee.

 

I understand Zimmerman wanting to know who this character walking through his community was. And yes, while hooded sweatshirts have been very popular in recent years, they still happen to be an item of clothing that is capable of concealing your appearance quite a bit, so I understand if Zimmerman thought that might be something that should draw his attention. That being the case, however, I don't believe the purpose of Neighborhood Watch programs is to enable vigilante justice or to authorize civilians to carry concealed weapons and stalk shady characters. As I understand them, NW programs encourage residents to be aware of what is occurring in their neighborhoods and to report suspicious activity to the proper authorities. Being "aware" means if you see something while you are in your yard or getting your mail, report it. Not set out on your own in an armed fashion and playing police.

 

Bottom line is Zimmerman made several critical mistakes here because he was overzealous in his role as NW "captain," and because of it, Martin is dead. I make no judgment as to Martin, because I simply don't know his role in this. Either way, the path Zimmerman took increased the odds exponentially of something ugly happening, and in this case it did. And unless Martin attacked him unprovoked, which is hard for me to believe given just the actions Zimmerman admitted to taking, Zimmerman had no legal right to apply deadly force.

[Balta1701]

I don't know what authority if any 911 operators have. They're typically just call center employees.

But they give those instructions for a reason, because they don't want people taking "the law" into their own hands, where things like random shootings by untrained people on the street with no identity or authority will happen.

[NorthSideSox72]

They have none.

Not the case. As stated earlier, they represent the public safety department in response. They don't have police authority, but there can occasionally be consequences to ignoring them. Probably not in this scenario, but it can happen.

 

[BigSqwert]

I knew I'd be called a racist at some point, but I'm cool with it.

 

You admitted it yourself.

[Balta1701]

Zimmerman had no legal right to apply deadly force.

I'm just going to say that again here, I still think you're wrong, but we've been over this so I'm not going to rehash why.

[StrangeSox]

Ok, so you're telling me that noise cancellation doesn't exist now? You are flat out, technically and factually...wrong. While you can hear chatter in the background, it's NOT clear, and it's NOT loud enough for you to claim you can hear clearly. The technology prevents that. That's why the technology exists. And, if it doesn't exist on your phone, you may have a "new" phone, but it's either old tech or running a very old OS.

 

And yes, there are technical facts getting in the way here. Noise cancellation is real. It actually exists.

 

Haha ok, your technical knowledge of noise cancellation in phones trumps the actual, real phone conversations I just had yesterday. I have a Droid X2 running whatever the version of Android before ice cream. My coworker has a Bionic. I heard him and the person he was talking to very clearly as well as the drone of the machinery in the background. but I guess that was impossible?

 

But you've just admitted that not every phone in the world has this amazing noise cancelling technology (including phones that are fairly new!), so you've no reason to assume that "technical facts" are getting in the way here.

[Y2HH]

Sorry, but, this is just a huge leap to make. First, your "FACT" that Zimmerman is hispanic is irrelevant, or possibly even makes it MORE likely. This is a sad fact in Chicago, and I am sure elsewhere, that Hispanic and Black communities often do not get along. Look at the way neighborhoods are here. So the fact that he is Hispanic does nothing to reduce the chance this was racially motivated, and may even increase it.

 

Here is the reality - you cannot possibly know if Zimmerman's judgment was colored by color, nor can anyone else. There is no "pretending" here, except by anyone who thinks they KNOW it was, or KNOW it wasn't, racist.

 

One thing for damn sure - regardless of whether or Zimmerman or Martin turned out to be the aggressor during the physical confrontation, the confrontation itself was caused by Zimmerman acting beyond what he reasonably should have been in his role. Zimmerman caused the situation to occur.

 

If Zimmerman was a racist, he probably wouldn't choose to live in a gated community with black people. It is possible? Yes. It is unlikely...I'm afraid so. I don't know many racists that choose to live -- next door -- to the race they hate.

 

My point was that people are saying the only reason this kid was follow was because he's black. This is not logical when you consider the realities of that community. Other black people lived there. Zimmerman's neighbors are black. So my point remains: seeing a black kid wandering around probably isn't out of the ordinary.

[Balta1701]

I knew I'd be called a racist at some point, but I'm cool with it. If you lived in a gated neighborhood and knew your neighbors, seeing a big teen walking around with a hooded sweatshirt that you'd never seen before, you're going to wonder what he is doing there. It really makes no difference that he was black, he simply wasn't a member of that community.

And the appropriate response to that is to behave like a neighborhood watch person. Call the appropriate authorities and let them handle it. Instead, he was allowed to have a gun, deliberately decided that he was going to handle this one, and because of that a kid is dead.

[Balta1701]

If Zimmerman was a racist, he probably wouldn't choose to live in a gated community with black people. It is possible? Yes. It is unlikely...I'm afraid so. I don't know many racists that choose to live -- next door -- to the race they hate.

 

My point was that people are saying the only reason this kid was follow was because he's black. This is not logical when you consider the realities of that community. Other black people lived there. Zimmerman's neighbors are black. So my point remains: seeing a black kid wandering around probably isn't out of the ordinary.

Come on man, you know darn well that there can be different levels of racism. "I hate all black people" versus "Black people in my neighborhood look particularly suspicious". Person might think the second one, everyone would still say they're a great neighborhood watch captain and great neighbor, and that doesn't make the latter any less of an expression of racism.

[StrangeSox]

Sorry, but, this is just a huge leap to make. First, your "FACT" that Zimmerman is hispanic is irrelevant, or possibly even makes it MORE likely. This is a sad fact in Chicago, and I am sure elsewhere, that Hispanic and Black communities often do not get along. Look at the way neighborhoods are here. So the fact that he is Hispanic does nothing to reduce the chance this was racially motivated, and may even increase it.

 

Yeah, a big part of gang and prison violence is black and Hispanic gangs fighting each other.

 

Here is the reality - you cannot possibly know if Zimmerman's judgment was colored by color, nor can anyone else. There is no "pretending" here, except by anyone who thinks they KNOW it was, or KNOW it wasn't, racist.

 

If it can be determined conclusively that Zimmerman actually did use a racist slur and said "f***ing coons," then, yeah, we can conclude that he actually is a racist.

[Y2HH]

Haha ok, your technical knowledge of noise cancellation in phones trumps the actual, real phone conversations I just had yesterday. I have a Droid X2 running whatever the version of Android before ice cream. My coworker has a Bionic. I heard him and the person he was talking to very clearly as well as the drone of the machinery in the background. but I guess that was impossible?

 

But you've just admitted that not every phone in the world has this amazing noise cancelling technology (including phones that are fairly new!), so you've no reason to assume that "technical facts" are getting in the way here.

 

I simply asked the question that everyone's ignoring. Fact is, the technology exists, and it's real...you present anecdotal evidence that just because you were able to hear background conversations, and apparently you can recite them back in detail, that so can this kids girlfriend? How presumptuous of you.

 

I can do that, too.

 

I've had many conversations on my phone, and I CAN'T hear the conversions in the background...and I've also used speakerphones where there was a lot of background noise, and in order for the person to hear me, or for me to hear them, we had to yell. But hearing anything the background in detail? No.

 

And no, for the record, I don't believe Zimmerman's story either.