Trayvon Martin

[Y2HH]

I think what's happening here is Milkman and I are the only two defending Zimmerman's right to be innocent here...

 

It just seems, on the surface, that most of you not only want to exonerate this kid, but you really hope that Zimmerman ends up being guilty.

 

I don't know who is innocent or guilty, I just want the truth to come out, regardless of who it ends up being. Just seems tainted to me...seems like you all really really want it to be Zimmerman at fault.

[Y2HH]

Noise cancellation, at least anything I've ever seen, is fantastic at cutting out constant background noise. Engines running on a plane, traffic drone, air conditioners, lawn mowers, etc. What they struggle to adapt to are unpredictable noise patterns, such as someone starting to talk to you right next to you.

 

Like I said, use a modern bluetooth headset, such as a jawbone. You will hear NOTHING but the person you're talking too.

[Balta1701]

I think what's happening here is Milkman and I are the only two defending Zimmerman's right to be innocent here...

 

It just seems, on the surface, that most of you not only want to exonerate this kid, but you really hope that Zimmerman ends up being guilty.

 

I don't know who is innocent or guilty, I just want the truth to come out, regardless of who it ends up being. Just seems tainted to me...seems like you all really really want it to be Zimmerman at fault.

My problem is...by his own admission...he is at fault. He created this circumstance. Without his actions and his decisions, none of this happens, and the kid gets to where he's walking to alive. He refused to allow the normal path of calling 911 on a suspicious person play itself out, and a kid wound up dead. Whatever happened in-between, he made the initial decision to escalate things, and a kid wound up dead.

[StrangeSox]

You're the ones differentiating between "black" kid and kid "I know doesn't live here".

 

Is he more likely to call in and confront some white kid he doesn't know or a black kid? What about society in general, which is more likely to draw suspicion and attention?

[Balta1701]

Some neighborhood watches are more active than others. My neighborhood has a gang problem (most just punk kids who are more scared of you than you are of them). A lot of people around here preach that simply walking by these guys and making your presence known is enough to disperse them.

Would you chase one of them down the street? Get out of your car? Do so after calling 911?

[iamshack]

You're the ones differentiating between "black" kid and kid "I know doesn't live here".

It's not as simple as that.

 

It's not just a kid I know doesn't live here, it's a person that might be up to mischief because he resembles other kids I have seen that have been up to mischief.

 

And there's nothing wrong with Zimmerman, at least IMHO, for feeling that way.

 

The problem is that Zimmerman isn't trained with how to deal with a situation such as this and that is probably a large part of why this ended the way it did.

[StrangeSox]

My problem is...by his own admission...he is at fault. He created this circumstance. Without his actions and his decisions, none of this happens, and the kid gets to where he's walking to alive. He refused to allow the normal path of calling 911 on a suspicious person play itself out, and a kid wound up dead. Whatever happened in-between, he made the initial decision to escalate things, and a kid wound up dead.

 

Right, regardless of who made the first physical contact, the situation is entirely the creation of Zimmerman. There's no one disputing that. Even if Zimmerman didn't violate any Florida laws, either because Florida laws are f***ed or because he really was jumped from behind while returning to his car, it still feels like an injustice. Even assuming the worst, this kid didn't do a single thing wrong until Zimmerman started stalking him.

[Y2HH]

My problem is...by his own admission...he is at fault. He created this circumstance. Without his actions and his decisions, none of this happens, and the kid gets to where he's walking to alive. He refused to allow the normal path of calling 911 on a suspicious person play itself out, and a kid wound up dead. Whatever happened in-between, he made the initial decision to escalate things, and a kid wound up dead.

 

From what we know, this isn't a bad assumption.

 

But, it ignores the fact that Zimmerman actually has the right to check out what this kid was up too...should he have? That's not up to us to determine...but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right.

 

I heard some stuff a few weeks back down my alley, some kids were messing around...and I went down there to check it out. Call it curiosity...of course, I didn't shoot any of them...but that doesn't mean much...the fact that I have every right to make sure nothing bad is happening isn't something I need permission to check on, not from you, and not from some 911 operator.

[StrangeSox]

Like I said, use a modern bluetooth headset, such as a jawbone. You will hear NOTHING but the person you're talking too.

 

Great, let's say that she didn't actually hear Zimmerman completely clearly but her brain put together what he was saying. Her statement still makes it clear that Zimmerman was not actually returning to his truck and jumped from behind.

[Balta1701]

Right, regardless of who made the first physical contact, the situation is entirely the creation of Zimmerman. There's no one disputing that. Even if Zimmerman didn't violate any Florida laws, either because Florida laws are f***ed or because he really was jumped from behind while returning to his car, it still feels like an injustice. Even assuming the worst, this kid didn't do a single thing wrong until Zimmerman started stalking him.

And even if Zimmerman's instincts had been right and the kid had been suspicious and up to no good...Zimmerman took the correct steps in contacting the authorities. That is the right step, bring in people who are both trained to deal with that situation and who have legal authority to stop people on the street and ask questions/compel answers.

[StrangeSox]

Complete assumption. He simply could have been asking him questions.

 

Simply asking questions after following him for a while, though, and approaching him where he had every right to be. If someone had followed you for blocks in an unfamiliar neighborhood and then got in your face, questioning who you are and why you were there, what would your reaction be? Would it be unreasonable to tell them to f*** off and shove them out of your face?

[Y2HH]

Great, let's say that she didn't actually hear Zimmerman completely clearly but her brain put together what he was saying. Her statement still makes it clear that Zimmerman was not actually returning to his truck and jumped from behind.

 

That's a whole mess load of assumptions you're just deciding to believe, versus Zimmerman's story which says the opposite. His word against hers...and you're just deciding, on a whim, that he's the liar, and shes telling the truth...

 

And she may be.

 

But...so may he be...or he may be she he be.

[StrangeSox]

From what we know, this isn't a bad assumption.

 

But, it ignores the fact that Zimmerman actually has the right to check out what this kid was up too...should he have? That's not up to us to determine...but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right.

 

I heard some stuff a few weeks back down my alley, some kids were messing around...and I went down there to check it out. Call it curiosity...of course, I didn't shoot any of them...but that doesn't mean much...the fact that I have every right to make sure nothing bad is happening isn't something I need permission to check on, not from you, and not from some 911 operator.

 

He doesn't actually have the authority to check out what he was doing. he has the right to approach the kid and ask questions, but the kid has every right to tell him to go f*** himself.

[iamshack]

From what we know, this isn't a bad assumption.

 

But, it ignores the fact that Zimmerman actually has the right to check out what this kid was up too...should he have? That's not up to us to determine...but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right.

 

I heard some stuff a few weeks back down my alley, some kids were messing around...and I went down there to check it out. Call it curiosity...of course, I didn't shoot any of them...but that doesn't mean much...the fact that I have every right to make sure nothing bad is happening isn't something I need permission to check on, not from you, and not from some 911 operator.

There are all kinds of things that we have the legal right to do, but that common sense tells us will exponentially increase the odds of hurting ourselves or others.

 

As far as we know, Zimmerman is just guilty of engaging in stupidity.

 

However, the more times you engage in stupidity, especially when it involves guns and killing others, the more likely you are to end up in prison as well.

[Balta1701]

That's a whole mess load of assumptions you're just deciding to believe, versus Zimmerman's story which says the opposite. His word against hers...and you're just deciding, on a whim, that he's the liar, and shes telling the truth...

 

And she may be.

 

But...so may he be...or he may be she he be.

And let's note...neither of them may be lying. It's a classic case of multiple eyewitnesses each with their own version of the story, and overwhelming evidence shows that every one of them will probably believe their statements and the truth is somewhere in-between. Both of them were probably in something of a panicked state at the time, and that's plenty of reason to expect their stories to come out muddled.

 

The one big difference here is that the other eye-witness is dead.

[Y2HH]

There are all kinds of things that we have the legal right to do, but that common sense tells us will exponentially increase the odds of hurting ourselves or others.

 

As far as we know, Zimmerman is just guilty of engaging in stupidity.

 

However, the more times you engage in stupidity, especially when it involves guns and killing others, the more likely you are to end up in prison as well.

 

This I can agree with.

 

It does appear that Zimmerman escalated the situation...but it's possible that the kid then took it further and a confrontation took place. I just find it hard to believe that a neighborhood watch guy, who actually started by following protocol and calling the police, was looking for a physical confrontation. It appears from the events leading up to the situation, that Zimmerman was legit wondering what this kid was doing and why. Just seems reasonable to me that if Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, he never calls 911.

[StrangeSox]

And let's note...neither of them may be lying. It's a classic case of multiple eyewitnesses each with their own version of the story, and overwhelming evidence shows that every one of them will probably believe their statements and the truth is somewhere in-between. Both of them were probably in something of a panicked state at the time, and that's plenty of reason to expect their stories to come out muddled.

 

The one big difference here is that the other eye-witness is dead.

 

No, Zimmerman's story and the girl's story are contradictory. Zimmerman claims he was returning to his truck and was attacked from behind. The girl claims that, through what Martin was saying, that Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin yelled at him. There's no "truth is in the middle" for those two stories.

[StrangeSox]

This I can agree with.

 

It does appear that Zimmerman escalated the situation...but it's possible that the kid then took it further and a confrontation took place. I just find it hard to believe that a neighborhood watch guy, who actually started by following protocol and calling the police, was looking for a physical confrontation. It appears from the events leading up to the situation, that Zimmerman was legit wondering what this kid was doing and why. Just seems reasonable to me that if Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, he never calls 911.

 

 

Why are we lending any real weight to his status as a neighborhood watch captain? It's not something that comes with any real training, responsibility or authority.

[Balta1701]

No, Zimmerman's story and the girl's story are contradictory. Zimmerman claims he was returning to his truck and was attacked from behind. The girl claims that, through what Martin was saying, that Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin yelled at him. There's no "truth is in the middle" for those two stories.

But you know darn well that eyewitness testimony and memories, especially in a panicked circumstance, are completely unreliable. She probably thought she heard one thing on the phone and I'll guarantee you if you had a videotape, what she thought she heard would not exactly match the actual statements, and what Zimmerman thought he experienced would not match the actual events. That is how eyewitness accounts go. They are always completely one-sided, and their accuracy is hugely suspect.

[Y2HH]

No, Zimmerman's story and the girl's story are contradictory. Zimmerman claims he was returning to his truck and was attacked from behind. The girl claims that, through what Martin was saying, that Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin yelled at him. There's no "truth is in the middle" for those two stories.

 

So why can't we all just hope the truth comes out and let it be?

 

Why do you all seem to really want Zimmerman to be guilty of murder one in this situation, simply because you wouldn't have followed the kid, when he did? You're also not a neighborhood watch leader...who seems like the exact type of person that WOULD, in fact, take things further and follow someone they find suspicious.

[Y2HH]

Why are we lending any real weight to his status as a neighborhood watch captain? It's not something that comes with any real training, responsibility or authority.

 

It's an archetype...at least, in my opinion. I think the type of personality that organizes such a thing, and takes charge of such a thing, is the exact type of person that would follow a suspicious person around...where as you or I would simply call the cops and go inside.

[Balta1701]

Just seems reasonable to me that if Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, he never calls 911.

The part that makes this statement suspect is his own statement "These assholes, they always get away" which is in the transcript of his 911 call.

[StrangeSox]

But you know darn well that eyewitness testimony and memories, especially in a panicked circumstance, are completely unreliable. She probably thought she heard one thing on the phone and I'll guarantee you if you had a videotape, what she thought she heard would not exactly match the actual statements, and what Zimmerman thought he experienced would not match the actual events. That is how eyewitness accounts go. They are always completely one-sided, and their accuracy is hugely suspect.

 

I agree that eyewitness testimony is, more often than not, useless or actually harmful to the truth and have said as much.

 

But there's no real way to square those two stories. Either Zimmerman was returning to his truck or he approached Martin. There's not really a grey area there.

[StrangeSox]

So why can't we all just hope the truth comes out and let it be?

 

without national attention, there would have been zero additional investigation into this case.

[Y2HH]

The part that makes this statement suspect is his own statement "These assholes, they always get away" which is in the transcript of his 911 call.

 

Not denying that, which is why he followed him. This Zimmerman seems to be the exact type of personality that would follow him...legally I might add. Did that escalate the situation? Seems like it. But was it illegal for him to follow? Nope, sure isn't.