Trayvon Martin

[Balta1701]

They may be relevant socially, its unclear at the moment. Its not like Zimmerman was a member of the Nazi party or a member of the KKK. For all we know this truly was a terrible terrible tragedy.

 

Was race involved in the arrest?

 

At first it seemed possible, but now as the facts come out, it appears the police wanted Zimmeran charged with manslaughter.

 

Was race involved in the DA's decision not to prosecute?

 

This may be possible, but not because the DA is racist, but instead because the DA perceives that the jury may be racist. Conviction percentages are the most important thing to prosecutors, many of them have a ridiculous rate of 90% or higher. They for the most part do not want to take risky cases because it generally is a lose lose situation. Furthermore, in this case, had the DA prosecuted and Zimmerman was found to be within his rights, the City/Municipality may have been liable to Zimmerman.

 

So at the end of the day, I now believe the most likely thing that happened was that the DA didnt prosecute, because he didnt want to risk his job.

 

Nothing sinister, just the sad state of criminal prosecution.

I'd say that the most likely reason the DA didn't want to prosecute is because of that stupid Florida law which requires effectively overwhelming evidence before a case can be brought to prove that a shooting wasn't self defense. In this case, overwhelming evidence will never be possible. The case will never meet the standard established in the law.

 

That doesn't mean that race wasn't involved in this case. We've got a guy who sees a black kid in a hoodie, decides he's "Suspicious", follows him around the neighborhood, mutters "These a**holes always get away" to a 911 operator, then gets out of his car to pursue him further, at which point there is a confrontation and he shoots.

 

The reason why this set of events resonates strongly with African Americans is that they're used to being singled out. They're used to being looked at as suspicious. They're taught as kids that any time they buy something they need to put it in a bag so that the store doesn't think they stole it. They darn well better keep their hands on the wheel in a traffic stop until the officer tells them to move their hands, otherwise the officer will think they're being aggressive.

 

This is a community of people that get treatment that the rest of us don't, and in this case, a 17 year old skinny kid got that same treatment and then wound up dead. And they have every right to be tired of it. Having a kid get gunned down for no reason other than some guy thought he looked "Suspicious" is right in with everything that community has gone through.

[Balta1701]

The racial issues aren't relevant to the legal issues directly but are relevant socially.

The racial issues could be very relevant to the legal issues. It's the only thing that could allow federal charges in the case.

[Y2HH]

Either you haven't paid much attention to this thread or you're just trying to get on everyone's nerves by insulting them. Pretty much everyone here has taken a nuanced, supported position in some fashion here. The people who think that the police are letting a guy off for shooting a kid have been very clear about what they think went wrong in the system and how they got to those conclusions.

 

That's true, I should add that you're right, people here aren't doing that, but many in the mass media/general public are. Just like the share of crazies that are proclaiming Zimmerman innocent and Martin a thug.

[Y2HH]

Fox is reporting that the witness may have been pressured to give details he didn't have. He also claims that the entirety of what he saw took place on grass, which could invalidate Zimmermans claims of having his head bashed onto concrete. This makes Zimmerman's claims indeed look exegerrated.

[Jenksismyhero]

So that's wasting lots of taxpayer dollars and resources (the Boy Who Cried Wolf), he should have been taken off the Watch.

 

Has one of his hunches ever turned out to have prevented an actual crime in progress, or has it always been simply suspicion a crime might be committed in the future?

 

I thought I read somewhere that within the last year there was a serious uptick in crime - burglaries, assaults and a shooting. Maybe that was all justified for a guy trying to win back his neighborhood.

[StrangeSox]

He was calling in young children, as young as 7, playing in the neighborhood.

[Jenksismyhero]

He was calling in young children, as young as 7, playing in the neighborhood.

 

[StrangeSox]

I hope you call 911 every time you see a black kid on your street. You can never be too safe.

[StrangeSox]

Young black children or just young children?

 

based on the logs, black children.

[Jenksismyhero]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012...-abuse-911.html

 

He called about everything.

 

It's pretty dishonest SS to just paint him as a racist guy looking to pick on the black people on his street.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

 

A review of police records confirms Taaffe’s account of crimes in the neighborhood. According to the Miami Herald, police were called to Twin Lakes 402 times in the 13 months before Martin’s death. According to the Herald’s review of police records, the community experienced eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting over that period.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Fox is reporting that the witness may have been pressured to give details he didn't have. He also claims that the entirety of what he saw took place on grass, which could invalidate Zimmermans claims of having his head bashed onto concrete. This makes Zimmerman's claims indeed look exegerrated.

He clearly hit his head on something, he was actually at least scratched/hurt somehow.

[Balta1701]

And I'm guessing that when you're head is being repeatedly slammed into something, you're not totally aware of what it is at the time and justifiably assume that it won't end well if you allow it to continue.

You're right, and if that were the case, then force would be justified...but that's exactly why an untrained person with no backup and no non-lethal means of defense should not go trailing "suspicious" people down the street, and then damn well shouldn't go after them on foot, which would never have happened if he wasn't armed and trying to be a vigilante.

 

And honestly, if that kid was on top of me, I could have picked him up and thrown him off of me given his reported weight of about 150 lbs. He was a twig. And Zimmerman's quite a bit bigger than me. But then we're now both back into logical hypotheticals.

[Balta1701]

Agreed.

And then if we want to go back through it, there's "Which witness do we believe, should we actually believe the statement of the shooter only (no), should we only believe the statement of the person who was on the phone (no)", etc.

 

"He was slamming my head into the ground!" is what the shooter is always going to say. The problem is that the other witness is dead.

[BigSqwert]

Forgive me for not reading this entire long winded thread but I did notice a lot of people jumping on the "hoodie" angle and how it looks "suspicious" when a young person wears one. Did anyone bring up the fact that it was actually raining when this happened? Now you're not allowed to wear a hood when it rains? GMAFB

 

Zimmerman phoned the Sanford Police Department police at the non-emergency number at approximately 7:00 p.m., February 26, 2012[55] to report what he considered to be suspicious behavior by Martin, which he described as "just walking around looking about" in the rain.[56] The police dispatcher tape recorded him saying, "This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something." He further stated that the person he was observing had his hand in his waistband, was holding something in his other hand, and was walking around slowly in the rain looking at houses.[57]

 

via

[SouthSideTeacher]

Zimmerman's first reaction to the 911 operator asking was, "I think he's black...", he wasn't even sure. Yea, that sounds like profiling based on race to me. Maybe there is unaired tape of the 911 call where he says, "Let me make sure he's black...and if he is, I'll go after him!" Maybe then I'd lend more credibility to him being a racist than what we have now...

 

 

Forgive me if I've missed someone mentioning this before--I've been trying to keep up with the thread but this one seems to be a case of miss a little, miss a lot.

 

Has anyone else heard the part of the tape where Zimmerman allegedly mutters, "F****** C**ns" under his breath as he's following the kid on foot?

Grainy audio-- so you can't be absolutely positive, but it sure sounds like it to me.

 

 

 

I agree with the poster who argues that the DA opted not to charge Zimmerman because it wasn't a slam dunk and he didn't want to risk his job.

 

It's just so sad all around. I'm tired of it. I face this room full of 11-14 year old boys who look at me and ask "WHY, Miss O?" and I am at a loss for what to tell them.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Walking around looking at houses can very easily look like someone scoping out an empty house to rob. It could have also been Martin looking for a particular house in a neighborhood he wasn't yet totally familiar with. I still see little reason why it was wrong of Zimmerman to be suspicious. Since the guy was black, many people are going to jump immediately to racism and won't be talked down from it. If the majority of crimes in your neighborhood (which has also seen a rise in crime recently) are committed by black youths covering their faces up, it's only logical to be suspicious of a new person in your neighborhood looking like that, especially if you're familiar with people who live near you.

 

 

I thought he didn't put his hood on until after he became concerned Zimmerman was following him or going to try to approach him?

[Y2HH]

Forgive me for not reading this entire long winded thread but I did notice a lot of people jumping on the "hoodie" angle and how it looks "suspicious" when a young person wears one. Did anyone bring up the fact that it was actually raining when this happened? Now you're not allowed to wear a hood when it rains? GMAFB

 

 

 

via

 

He only put the hoodie up after Zimmerman spotted him, supposedly.

[Y2HH]

Forgive me if I've missed someone mentioning this before--I've been trying to keep up with the thread but this one seems to be a case of miss a little, miss a lot.

 

Has anyone else heard the part of the tape where Zimmerman allegedly mutters, "F****** C**ns" under his breath as he's following the kid on foot?

Grainy audio-- so you can't be absolutely positive, but it sure sounds like it to me.

 

 

 

I agree with the poster who argues that the DA opted not to charge Zimmerman because it wasn't a slam dunk and he didn't want to risk his job.

 

It's just so sad all around. I'm tired of it. I face this room full of 11-14 year old boys who look at me and ask "WHY, Miss O?" and I am at a loss for what to tell them.

 

It doesn't sound like he says anything intelligible at all. It's so beyond grainy that to this point audio experts still can't tell what was said. Hopefully one of them can decipher it with an experts credibility...but until that happens let's not jump to conclusions. It's equally possible all he said was, "f***ing kids".

Edited March 31, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012...-abuse-911.html

 

He called about everything.

 

It's pretty dishonest SS to just paint him as a racist guy looking to pick on the black people on his street.

 

It's pretty dishonest to say that's what I said when I said that, starting in 2011, he started calling more and more about black youths.

 

 

But starting in 2011, Zimmerman’s calls increasingly focused on what he considered “suspicious” characters walking around the neighborhood—almost all of whom were young black males.

[Balta1701]

So he puts his hood up when he thinks he's been spotted scoping out houses. In Zimmerman's mind, that makes sense. And again, I can't totally blame the guy.

For "Finding a (black) kid he's never been suspicious and calling police", even if he does that all the time, fine, them's the rules and that's society we live in.

 

Chasing the kid despite being told not to, getting out of the car, getting into a position where he could take a shot, and then taking the shot, those things he can be blamed for. Maybe more, by some reports.

[Balta1701]

He only put the hoodie up after Zimmerman spotted him, supposedly.

I'm sure that Zimmerman was keeping detailed written records of when all of these things happened so that we can fully trust that statement.

 

Come on, if it's dark and raining, you're actually expecting a guy to remember when during a multi-minute period a kid put his hood up? Or actually be able to tell beforehand?

[StrangeSox]

I'm sure that Zimmerman was keeping detailed written records of when all of these things happened so that we can fully trust that statement.

 

Come on, if it's dark and raining, you're actually expecting a guy to remember when during a multi-minute period a kid put his hood up? Or actually be able to tell beforehand?

 

I believe that's what the girl who was on the phone with Trayvon said Trayvon told her he was doing.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-de...17#.T3cozDGvhi6

He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Edited March 31, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

I believe that's what the girl who was on the phone with Trayvon said Trayvon told her he was doing

And I'm sure she has similarly detailed records.

 

Seriously, all we have are a couple "eyewitness" reports, one of whom was on the phone, and one of whom was the actual shooter. The only things really, truly worth believing are the phone call records, the 911 transcript, the fact that Zimmerman was slightly injured, and the autopsy on Martin. Eyewitness statements are always 1/2 true, even if people are trying to remember perfectly.

[StrangeSox]

And I'm sure she has similarly detailed records.

 

Seriously, all we have are a couple "eyewitness" reports, one of whom was on the phone, and one of whom was the actual shooter. The only things really, truly worth believing are the phone call records, the 911 transcript, the fact that Zimmerman was slightly injured, and the autopsy on Martin. Eyewitness statements are always 1/2 true, even if people are trying to remember perfectly.

 

I don't think when he put his hood up is relevant anyway, so I don't see any reason to discount her story.

 

Like I said earlier, I'm sure the NSA has a recording of her call, just release it already!