Trayvon Martin

[SouthSideTeacher]

Sure, but let me stop all of you there. You're all operating under the assumption that Zimmerman did more than just that, that he initiated the physical confrontation. And sorry, being freaked out doesn't suffice in that situation. If it did, I know a girl who would legally be allowed to kill every homeless person she has ever walked by, as she is terrified of them all.

 

 

Didn't he though?

 

Here is what we know to be absolute fact--

Zimmerman appointed himself captain of the neighborhood watch.

He took his job so seriously that he regularly patrolled the small community with a 9mm.

He's called police 46 times since Jan 2011, including one instance where he reported a suspicious looking 7-year-old playing on one of the streets he was 'watching' at the time.

Common sense conclusion to be drawn here? He knew his neighborhood well enough that he wouldn't have to GET OUT OF HIS VEHICLE TO CHECK THE NAME ON ONE OF THE STREET SIGNS while he was out on 'patrol'.

 

Yet that's what he told police he was doing. "I got out to check the street sign, and as I walked back to my car, the kid attacked me."

 

Okay... well, the 'attack' (and subsequent murder) occurred NOWHERE near this guy's vehicle. In fact, Trayvon's body was found about a block and a half away from the car.

 

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03...w=510&h=342

 

Blue BOX is Zim's car. Red X is where the kid's body was found.

(The arrows are someone's best guess as to the exact routes that Zim and Trayvon took, but that's not what I'm attending to.)

 

Any thinking person could easily put 2 and 2 together here. Zimmerman followed the kid by car for as long as he could--as long as Trayvon stayed on the sidewalks. When Trayvon left the sidewalks and started moving along the walking path in between residences--where Zim's car could not go-- Zim got out of the car and followed him the remaining block and a half-- These assholes always get away, right?-- until they met face to face.

 

The killing didn't happen on the street. It happened in someone's backyard. How does this support Zimmerman's statement that he was attacked from behind while walking back to his truck?

It doesn't.

I believe Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. YOU don't have to, but for me, common sense and his version of the story don't mesh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mr_genius]

Didn't he though?

 

Here is what we know to be absolute fact--

Zimmerman appointed himself captain of the neighborhood watch.

He took his job so seriously that he regularly patrolled the small community with a 9mm.

He's called police 46 times since Jan 2011, including one instance where he reported a suspicious looking 7-year-old playing on one of the streets he was 'watching' at the time.

Common sense conclusion to be drawn here? He knew his neighborhood well enough that he wouldn't have to GET OUT OF HIS VEHICLE TO CHECK THE NAME ON ONE OF THE STREET SIGNS while he was out on 'patrol'.

 

Yet that's what he told police he was doing. "I got out to check the street sign, and as I walked back to my car, the kid attacked me."

 

Okay... well, the 'attack' (and subsequent murder) occurred NOWHERE near this guy's vehicle. In fact, Trayvon's body was found about a block and a half away from the car.

 

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03...w=510&h=342

 

Blue BOX is Zim's car. Red X is where the kid's body was found.

(The arrows are someone's best guess as to the exact routes that Zim and Trayvon took, but that's not what I'm attending to.)

 

Any thinking person could easily put 2 and 2 together here. Zimmerman followed the kid by car for as long as he could--as long as Trayvon stayed on the sidewalks. When Trayvon left the sidewalks and started moving along the walking path in between residences--where Zim's car could not go-- Zim got out of the car and followed him the remaining block and a half-- These assholes always get away, right?-- until they met face to face.

 

The killing didn't happen on the street. It happened in someone's backyard. How does this support Zimmerman's statement that he was attacked from behind while walking back to his truck?

It doesn't.

I believe Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. YOU don't have to, but for me, common sense and his version of the story don't mesh.

 

that's a pretty interesting map. do you know the source? there is a lot of misinformation coming out of the media right now; trying to sensationalize and exploit the situation.

[SouthSideTeacher]

So you're just admitting that you're confusing what you believe and what you know.

 

 

good one.

 

Actually, what I'm admitting to is that I wasn't there. I don't KNOW with certainty anything about that night except what I heard in the real-time 911 calls and that a young boy is dead.

NOBODY-- except the one guy with everything to lose-- knows with certainty what happened that night.

Since Zimmerman's story is full of holes, I'm basing my opinion, my belief, on a common sense piecing-together of this guy's word and a physical map of the scene. The map don't lie.

 

 

[Balta1701]

there had been a number of breakins and maybe the criminal had eluded apprehension.

They had.

 

So, he followed a kid. The kid got scared, started running, he started chasing harder.

 

Why would the kid be scared?

[SouthSideTeacher]

I hope you never serve on a jury.

 

Right back at ya, bro.

[SouthSideTeacher]

that's a pretty interesting map. do you know the source? there is a lot of misinformation coming out of the media right now; trying to sensationalize and exploit the situation.

 

 

I agree with you about the media's sensationalistic tactics.

I've seen this map and several others like it used in lots of papers, online, and television news sources to try to map out the footsteps of both guys. I don't pay attention to that-- what does it matter now if the kid turned right or left?

 

I pasted this version of the community map because it's a solid representation of where the car was left and where the body was found.

 

If you're concerned with media tampering of the diagram I used, then an actual photo of the crime scene investigation supports my point-- the kid was not found near the street, but off the walking path in somebody's backyard.

 

http://www.bet.com/content/betcom/news/nat...crime-scene.jpg

 

and one in the light of day--no police tape

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/24/...893_634x418.jpg

Edited April 1, 2012 by SouthSideTeacher

[caulfield12]

12 Angry Men, SouthSide Version, I can just see it now.

 

Or The Runaway Jury.

 

 

Can't we just bring in Mark Harmon and NCIS to solve this one?

 

 

At any rate, the "these ---holes always get away" comment hasn't been countered. Whether he actually made the "f----- c--ns" comment hasn't been 100% validated, but it also seems HIGHLY likely that it was Martin and NOT Zimmerman who was screaming or yelling out audibly.

 

The question, what was Martin supposedly getting away with, exactly?

 

It would be ONE thing if he was a menacing looking 25 year old weighing 225 pounds (that's a whole different thread about the rights of a "strong/fit" black person to not be suspected of being a "menace to society" as we've seen hundreds of times with professional athletes and entertainers being stopped by police for the same presumptions or assumptions Zimmerman was making), it's quite another with a kid of Martin's weight and size.

 

If he was "casing" a house, why would he be doing it in broad daylight? It just doesn't hold up.

Edited April 1, 2012 by caulfield12

[GoodAsGould]

How dare I want a person convicted of murder only if the evidence proves it.

 

You seem like one of those people who watch too much csi and think everything is so neatly wrapped up for the prosecutor to get a guilty verdict.

Edited April 1, 2012 by GoodAsGould

[BigSqwert]

At the end of the day Zimmerman is going to hell for breaking one of the ten commandments. That gives me solace.

[Y2HH]

At the end of the day Zimmerman is going to hell for breaking one of the ten commandments. That gives me solace.

 

Too bad there is no hell.

[BigSqwert]

Too bad there is no hell.

Not true. I've been to Corsicana Texas.

[Y2HH]

You seem like one of those people who watch too much csi and think everything is so neatly wrapped up for the prosecutor to get a guilty verdict.

 

That's not at all what he's saying. It's what you're saying he's saying, but it's not what he's actually saying.

 

And to get a guilty verdict, it actually *does* take quite a bit of hard evidence to present "beyond a reasonable doubt". OJ walked with much better "neatly wrapped" evidence...but how soon we forget. The media/public also convicted the kids from, what was it, the Duke Lacrosse team, with nothing other than circumstantial evidence and speculation...and how'd that work out?

 

All he's asking for is people stop using nothing more than speculation to convict someone that hasn't even been charged of anything yet...and we all get it...something went awry with the law here...but it IS the law, irregardless of how we personally feel about it.

[Y2HH]

Not true. I've been to Corsicana Texas.

 

They let you in?! I thought you had to eat meat just to enter!

[caulfield12]

At the end of the day Zimmerman is going to hell for breaking one of the ten commandments. That gives me solace.

 

 

You have to look at his mentality, though. As described many times, he was treating his neighborhood like a "war zone" and stepping into the breach where the police were not doing their jobs, in his opinion, or not vigilant enough. (Just wait, when they start cutting back on police officers in the future, with more and more state and municipal budgets being slashed, we'll see more and more of these street vigilantes/citizen posses forming...this won't be the last time). Based on the sheer volume of calls, his level of frustration with police inaction probably reached the breaking point (not unlike the soldier who killed all the civilians in Kandahar recently) and he just let adrenaline and self-righteousness carry him over the edge.

 

In his idea, he was a soldier (self-proclaimed) protecting his neighborhood from invasion.

 

Mentally, he would describe it as self-defense or the same type of thing a US soldier would argue in Afghanistan as killing during wartime conditions.

 

And that's the problem, with so many guns on the streets and the lack of control due to anyone's willingness to stand up to the NRA, these types of situations are going to be the result.

 

Here in China, there are confrontations all the time, and the murder rate would be exponentially higher than the US, except for the fact that nobody but the police and military are allowed to carry guns on them. Multiply "road rage" fatalities by a factor of 10 the way people drive here.

Edited April 1, 2012 by caulfield12

[mr_genius]

They let you in?! I thought you had to eat meat just to enter

 

 

you do. his story isn't adding up.

[GoodAsGould]

That's not at all what he's saying. It's what you're saying he's saying, but it's not what he's actually saying.

 

And to get a guilty verdict, it actually *does* take quite a bit of hard evidence to present "beyond a reasonable doubt". OJ walked with much better "neatly wrapped" evidence...but how soon we forget. The media/public also convicted the kids from, what was it, the Duke Lacrosse team, with nothing other than circumstantial evidence and speculation...and how'd that work out?

 

All he's asking for is people stop using nothing more than speculation to convict someone that hasn't even been charged of anything yet...and we all get it...something went awry with the law here...but it IS the law, irregardless of how we personally feel about it.

 

It actually doesn't take much to get a guilty verdict....

[Texsox]

If you are going to break in, checking it out in the daytime, when you can see better, is fairly common. Taking a stroll munching on some skittles would be a decent cover. Just like an innocent person would.

[StrangeSox]

Arrest all black youths as a precaution

[Texsox]

Criminals have rights too and use them. So while other countries do arrest people as precautions, we do not. So criminals may visit stores and other targets as customers and there is very little that can be done. Of course, when the investigators have time, that is one of the first things they check.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Criminals have rights too and use them. So while other countries do arrest people as precautions, we do not. So criminals may visit stores and other targets as customers and there is very little that can be done. Of course, when the investigators have time, that is one of the first things they check.

And vigilantes may do things like call 911 a lot before they finally get frustrated and decide to go deal with the problem.

[iamshack]

If you are going to break in, checking it out in the daytime, when you can see better, is fairly common. Taking a stroll munching on some skittles would be a decent cover. Just like an innocent person would.

Except that his dad's fiancee lived in the neighborhood. I know you'll probably say this presented a perfect alibi for him, but one would think if he really wanted to burglarize a home he would do so to one that was not in the gated community in which he would be spending quite a bit of his own time.

[iamshack]

Yes. An unidentified person following me around in a car would freak me out. Especially if I thought I got away and then the person re-found me.

 

That's the kind of thing you tell a 5 year old to run home and hide with mom & dad if it happens to them. It is incredibly aggressive...and then worse if the person gets out of the car.

Balta, you can keep unwinding this thing as far as you want and finding fault with Zimmerman's actions. I don't think you're going to find many people who aren't playing devil's advocate that will disagree with you that Zimmerman did some incredibly stupid things that ultimately led to the altercation. Problem is, there aren't many laws against stupidity in this country...and if there were, there wouldn't be anywhere to put all of them.

 

I agree with you in regards to c & c laws, but you know as well as I do that trying to change those laws in the south would be practically impossible. It's going to take a lot more than one dead teenager to affect that kind of change.

[Texsox]

Except that his dad's fiancee lived in the neighborhood. I know you'll probably say this presented a perfect alibi for him, but one would think if he really wanted to burglarize a home he would do so to one that was not in the gated community in which he would be spending quite a bit of his own time.

 

Two things, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that, and it really isn't relevant to my comment.

 

The response was to the comment that it was daylight and a criminal would not be looking for a target during daylight. I countered that someone could be looking for a place to break into, and I should have added, they could be looking for a home where the people are at work and the house unoccupied. Zimmerman was not wrong is believing that Martin could be a criminal looking for a target. That was a possibility. We now know of course that Martin was not. But it is possible that someone walking through a neighborhood could possibly be looking for an opportunity to commit a crime. Arguably even more so in a gated community that doesn't lead "anywhere".

[Balta1701]

Two things, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that, and it really isn't relevant to my comment.

 

The response was to the comment that it was daylight and a criminal would not be looking for a target during daylight. I countered that someone could be looking for a place to break into, and I should have added, they could be looking for a home where the people are at work and the house unoccupied. Zimmerman was not wrong is believing that Martin could be a criminal looking for a target. That was a possibility. We now know of course that Martin was not. But it is possible that someone walking through a neighborhood could possibly be looking for an opportunity to commit a crime. Arguably even more so in a gated community that doesn't lead "anywhere".

Which is why calling 911 was the appropriate response. No one here has begrudged him doing that. Even if he made the decision because the kid was black and wearing scary outfits as judged by him, he has the right to call the police in that neighborhood.

 

Following the kid, scaring him to the point that he began running and hiding, then getting out of the car and resuming pursuit on foot...that's where he crossed the line from following the rules, from neighborhood watch, and became a vigilante with few options other than killing the kid.

[iamshack]

Two things, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that, and it really isn't relevant to my comment.

 

The response was to the comment that it was daylight and a criminal would not be looking for a target during daylight. I countered that someone could be looking for a place to break into, and I should have added, they could be looking for a home where the people are at work and the house unoccupied. Zimmerman was not wrong is believing that Martin could be a criminal looking for a target. That was a possibility. We now know of course that Martin was not. But it is possible that someone walking through a neighborhood could possibly be looking for an opportunity to commit a crime. Arguably even more so in a gated community that doesn't lead "anywhere".

It only goes further towards the point that Zimmerman is an idiot for making as many assumptions as he did. This only underlines precisely why armed citizens should not be walking around investigating what they deem to be suspicious characters. The fact that he did could very well be exactly why Martin got frightened and an altercation ensued. If Zimmerman would have just allowed the police to do his job, however, they could have potentially questioned Martin and found out that he was visiting his father's fiancee and that would have been the end of it.

 

The police, while feared for good reason by some, still at least have an aura of official capacity when they approach you, while random individuals do not. That probably played a very large role in why things turned out the way they did here.