Trayvon Martin

[Jenksismyhero]

Which is why calling 911 was the appropriate response. No one here has begrudged him doing that. Even if he made the decision because the kid was black and wearing scary outfits as judged by him, he has the right to call the police in that neighborhood.

Following the kid, scaring him to the point that he began running and hiding, then getting out of the car and resuming pursuit on foot...that's where he crossed the line from following the rules, from neighborhood watch, and became a vigilante with few options other than killing the kid.

 

I love how this has flipped so much in your mind that there's no possible reason for Zimmerman to do what he did. Maybe he saw a suspicious looking kid he hasn't seen before in his GATED community. He called the police, but clearly his calls haven't done jack to prevent the recent uptick in crime the prior year. So he, being the guy in the neighborhood that wants to curb the problem (since the cops clearly haven't), decides to tail the guy AND call the police in case he needs them. Then he sees the kid run away. So he chases after him again. He could, very reasonably, have believed that Martin had already committed a crime and wanted to keep an eye on him. He could have, reasonably, felt it MORE suspicious that the kid ran away after Martin saw him (as people that are caught doing something wrong tend to do that sort of thing). Pursuing him on foot to see where he went isn't some crime or instigation of conflict that you think it is. If his story is true, up to the actual conflict and eventual shooting his actions are 100% reasonable. And that's not to say Zimmerman should get away with murder, if that's what the evidence eventually shows.

 

And LOL at the "few options other than killing the kid." You have seriously become delusional about what happened in this case.

[StrangeSox]

There was no reasonable suspicion of Martin having committed a crime unless being young, black and wearing a hoodie is sufficient. Perhaps the whole mindset behind a GATED community is part of the problem.

 

Have you seen the logs of his calls? No s*** they didn't do anything to stop crime, he wasn't actually reporting any criminal activities.

Edited April 2, 2012 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

How is it reasonable to chase a teen around the neighborhood with a loaded weapon when you have no knowledge of a crime being committed and no reason to suspect the teen?

[Jenksismyhero]

There was no reasonable suspicion of Martin having committed a crime unless being young, black and wearing a hoodie is sufficient. Perhaps the whole mindset behind a GATED community is part of the problem.

 

Have you seen the logs of his calls? No s*** they didn't do anything to stop crime, he wasn't actually reporting any criminal activities.

 

The guy lives in a gated community and has taken over the neighborhood watch program. If anything seemed out of the ordinary, he would know it, and that's what raised his suspicions. Whether or not those were prejudicial or flat out racist is irrelevant. He has every right to see what was going on in his neighborhood and to watch what people are doing if he feels it is out of the ordinary. Merely following someone isn't instigating conflict. Nor is it, as Balta apparently believes, the first step towards inevitable murder.

[Jenksismyhero]

How is it reasonable to chase a teen around the neighborhood with a loaded weapon when you have no knowledge of a crime being committed and no reason to suspect the teen?

 

why does the gun have anything to do with this? is there evidence that Martin knew that Zimmerman was armed?

[StrangeSox]

why does the gun have anything to do with this? is there evidence that Martin knew that Zimmerman was armed?

 

We're discussing Zimmerman's actions here. Is it reasonable to chase a teen through your neighborhood with a loaded weapon simply because he "doesn't belong" in the area as far as you are aware?

[StrangeSox]

The guy lives in a gated community and has taken over the neighborhood watch program. If anything seemed out of the ordinary, he would know it, and that's what raised his suspicions. Whether or not those were prejudicial or flat out racist is irrelevant. He has every right to see what was going on in his neighborhood and to watch what people are doing if he feels it is out of the ordinary. Merely following someone isn't instigating conflict. Nor is it, as Balta apparently believes, the first step towards inevitable murder.

 

You're simply deferring to Zimmerman's judgement, which is assuming your conclusions that he acted reasonably.

 

I do not see anything reasonable about stopping the teen to question him in the first place to be honest, let alone following him through the neighborhood with a loaded firearm. It's not really Zimmerman's business who's walking around the public sidewalks in the neighborhood.

Edited April 2, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

We're discussing Zimmerman's actions here. Is it reasonable to chase a teen through your neighborhood with a loaded weapon simply because he "doesn't belong" in the area as far as you are aware?

 

Him carrying a gun, which is probably something he does all the time, is completely irrelevant to whether his actions with regard to Martin were reasonable.

[Jenksismyhero]

You're simply deferring to Zimmerman's judgement, which is assuming your conclusions that he acted reasonably.

 

I do not see anything reasonable about stopping the teen to question him in the first place to be honest, let alone following him through the neighborhood with a loaded firearm. It's not really Zimmerman's business who's walking around the public sidewalks in the neighborhood.

 

God forbid I try to remain neutral and see it through Zimmerman's eyes instead of just assuming that he's a dirty, gun-toting racist looking to kill a black kid!

 

 

Do gated communities have "public" sidewalks?

[iamshack]

God forbid I try to remain neutral and see it through Zimmerman's eyes instead of just assuming that he's a dirty, gun-toting racist looking to kill a black kid!

 

 

Do gated communities have "public" sidewalks?

Do you believe that Zimmerman's actions increased the likelihood that an altercation would occur?

 

The issue here is that Zimmerman undertook a course of action that increased the odds of an altercation of some sort occurring. Add to that course of action the fact that he was carrying a loaded weapon, and the degree of potential harm increases. Add to that, the fact that Zimmerman is not a municipal, state, or federal officer, employed in a professional capacity to "serve and protect," and only acting in an unofficial capacity as a neighborhood watch captain (and not wearing any clothing or uniform which would identify him as such) and the odds again increase. Finally, Zimmerman (as far as we know) has no training in self-defense techniques or in diffusing conflict (such as an officer of the law might), and again, the degree of potential harm increases.

 

That all being said, as Jenks has pointed out, there is no law against these actions. Being incredibly stupid or increasing the chances of an unfortunate incident occurring can not always be prevented by legislation. I'm chalking this one up to falling through the cracks, which, as sad as that is, isn't going to be enough to overhaul the entire justice system to legislate against being an incredible idiot.

 

The one good thing is, repeating this sort of idiotic behavior tends to catch up to a person very quickly.

Edited April 2, 2012 by iamshack

[StrangeSox]

God forbid I try to remain neutral and see it through Zimmerman's eyes instead of just assuming that he's a dirty, gun-toting racist looking to kill a black kid!

 

 

Do gated communities have "public" sidewalks?

 

Zimmerman is not responsible for nor has knowledge of every individual within the community and those who may legitimately be there as guests regardless of whether the community is otherwise open to the public.

 

There was no reason to suspect Trayvon Martin of having done anything wrong. His actions were not reasonable.

[Y2HH]

Zimmerman is not responsible for nor has knowledge of every individual within the community and those who may legitimately be there as guests regardless of whether the community is otherwise open to the public.

 

There was no reason to suspect Trayvon Martin of having done anything wrong. His actions were not reasonable.

 

Aside from fleeing the scene when Zimmerman spotted him, you mean?

 

Not for nothing, but I've been in similar situations where a person asked me what I was doing when wandering around for whatever reason...and I simply turned around and told him/them, "just walking"...to then be left alone. Putting my hood up and quickly leaving the scene, however, MAY look a bit more suspicious to some. Not to you, obviously, so at least I know I can come case yours and your neighbors houses and I won't worry about being asked any questions in the process. And seeing as that you don't racially profile, if you were suspicious of what I was doing there, you'd ask me, even though I'm a harmless white guy, right?

[StrangeSox]

I wouldn't be suspicious of someone walking down the street in front of my house. People do it all day, every day. I've never stopped anyone to question why they were in the neighborhood.

 

Zimmerman never approached or questioned Martin until the final altercation, though. He followed him around the neighborhood for several minutes, which, from Martin's point of view, is reasonably suspicious behavior. I know I'd be looking for alternative escape routes if someone was following me around.

[Y2HH]

I wouldn't be suspicious of someone walking down the street in front of my house. People do it all day, every day. I've never stopped anyone to question why they were in the neighborhood.

 

Zimmerman never approached or questioned Martin until the final altercation, though. He followed him around the neighborhood for several minutes, which, from Martin's point of view, is reasonably suspicious behavior. I know I'd be looking for alternative escape routes if someone was following me around.

 

The last 6 weeks there was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood (Clearing, IL...not far from Midway), two "dark skinned" males were said to be robbing houses and using a non descriptive "green van" to get away. No make, no model...just a green van. Rumor around my "hood" was that they'd first case the street they were looking to hit, separately, on foot before returning on a weekday when people were at work and hit a house when they knew nobody was home.

 

A few weeks ago I saw a dark skinned Latino walking down my street...and I know, I'm a f***ing racist...but I grew suspicious as to why! OMG, I know...how low and racist of me to profile like that. After he walked past my house, I walked out there and watched him walking about, seemingly aimlessly...and I asked him what he was looking for.

 

So he turned around and it turns out he was looking for a specific address, because his family lived there...who shortly after spotted him and came out to greet him and me...

 

You know what would have made me REALLY suspicious? If he suddenly put his hood up when I asked that question and started walking faster, you know...to get away from me.

 

AGAIN, as a final disclaimer. I'm NOT defending what Zimmerman did. I'm simply trying to tell you how and/or why Zimmerman had the right to be suspicious, DESPITE your claim he had no reason to be. Yes, he did. Just like I did. I would have simply called the police (and went to get my brother who lives across the street, who is the police), rather than arming myself and chasing him down...but I'm not Zimmerman, and I don't live in a place that let's me carry.

 

EDIT: Oh, last week, police caught the guys burglarizing a house a few blocks away from here, it turns out it was two black guys driving a light green minivan.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

I wouldn't be suspicious of someone walking down the street in front of my house. People do it all day, every day. I've never stopped anyone to question why they were in the neighborhood.

 

Zimmerman never approached or questioned Martin until the final altercation, though. He followed him around the neighborhood for several minutes, which, from Martin's point of view, is reasonably suspicious behavior. I know I'd be looking for alternative escape routes if someone was following me around.

 

TOTALLY depends on the neighborhood, which is why I find it hilarious that you're supplanting your own assumptions onto what Zimmerman was doing/thinking at the time. When I lived in the city, sure, I wouldn't think twice about it. I live in the burbs now where it's rare to see any random person walk down the street. And I know everyone on my block. So if I saw someone I didn't know walking down my street, I'd sure as hell wonder what the deal was and I'd be watching him/her, regardless of color or dress. If my neighborhood had an increase in crime, including a shooting, I'd do more than just watch. I'd do exactly what Zimmerman did, especially if the cops weren't patrolling the area as frequently as I would like them to.

[Jenksismyhero]

The last 6 weeks there was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood (Clearing, IL...not far from Midway), two "dark skinned" males were said to be robbing houses and using a non descriptive "green van" to get away. No make, no model...just a green van. Rumor around my "hood" was that they'd first case the street they were looking to hit, separately, on foot before returning on a weekday when people were at work and hit a house when they knew nobody was home.

 

A few weeks ago I saw a dark skinned Latino walking down my street...and I know, I'm a f***ing racist...but I grew suspicious as to why! OMG, I know...how low and racist of me to profile like that. After he walked past my house, I walked out there and watched him walking about, seemingly aimlessly...and I asked him what he was looking for.

 

So he turned around and it turns out he was looking for a specific address, because his family lived there...who shortly after spotted him and came out to greet him and me...

 

You know what would have made me REALLY suspicious? If he suddenly put his hood up when I asked that question and started walking faster, you know...to get away from me.

 

AGAIN, as a final disclaimer. I'm NOT defending what Zimmerman did. I'm simply trying to tell you how and/or why Zimmerman had the right to be suspicious, DESPITE your claim he had no reason to be. Yes, he did. Just like I did. I would have simply called the police (and went to get my brother who lives across the street, who is the police), rather than arming myself and chasing him down...but I'm not Zimmerman, and I don't live in a place that let's me carry.

 

EDIT: Oh, last week, police caught the guys burglarizing a house a few blocks away from here, it turns out it was two black guys driving a light green minivan.

 

This is all unreasonable. For shame, sir. For shame.

[Y2HH]

This is all unreasonable. For shame, sir. For shame.

 

I know, right?

[StrangeSox]

TOTALLY depends on the neighborhood, which is why I find it hilarious that you're supplanting your own assumptions onto what Zimmerman was doing/thinking at the time. When I lived in the city, sure, I wouldn't think twice about it. I live in the burbs now where it's rare to see any random person walk down the street. And I know everyone on my block. So if I saw someone I didn't know walking down my street, I'd sure as hell wonder what the deal was and I'd be watching him/her, regardless of color or dress. If my neighborhood had an increase in crime, including a shooting, I'd do more than just watch. I'd do exactly what Zimmerman did, especially if the cops weren't patrolling the area as frequently as I would like them to.

 

You sound paranoid. I also live in the suburbs.

[Jenksismyhero]

You sound paranoid. I also live in the suburbs.

 

In fairness I live on a dead end street, so it's a little different than most blocks. But still, there are a ton of kids on my block that play outside and my 1st is about to be one of them in the coming years. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to want to know what happens in your neighborhood.

[iamshack]

Well, what comes to my mind is the disconnect between those saying it is completely reasonable and normal to set out on foot and follow a random individual you are suspicious of and those saying you would be frightened if someone set out on foot and followed you around a neighborhood.

 

It can't be both, people.

 

It is either reasonable or it is not reasonable to do what Zimmerman did, and if it was reasonable, what reason would Martin have for being frightened?

 

Let me try to put it another way...

 

Say Martin had been looking to rob someone's house. What position was Zimmerman in to do about it? What good was going to come out of that situation?

[StrangeSox]

The last 6 weeks there was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood (Clearing, IL...not far from Midway), two "dark skinned" males were said to be robbing houses and using a non descriptive "green van" to get away. No make, no model...just a green van. Rumor around my "hood" was that they'd first case the street they were looking to hit, separately, on foot before returning on a weekday when people were at work and hit a house when they knew nobody was home.

 

A few weeks ago I saw a dark skinned Latino walking down my street...and I know, I'm a f***ing racist...but I grew suspicious as to why! OMG, I know...how low and racist of me to profile like that. After he walked past my house, I walked out there and watched him walking about, seemingly aimlessly...and I asked him what he was looking for.

 

So he turned around and it turns out he was looking for a specific address, because his family lived there...who shortly after spotted him and came out to greet him and me...

 

You know what would have made me REALLY suspicious? If he suddenly put his hood up when I asked that question and started walking faster, you know...to get away from me.

 

AGAIN, as a final disclaimer. I'm NOT defending what Zimmerman did. I'm simply trying to tell you how and/or why Zimmerman had the right to be suspicious, DESPITE your claim he had no reason to be. Yes, he did. Just like I did. I would have simply called the police (and went to get my brother who lives across the street, who is the police), rather than arming myself and chasing him down...but I'm not Zimmerman, and I don't live in a place that let's me carry.

 

I'll back up a bit and modify what I was saying since I almost added that exact scenario to an earlier post. I don't see anything wrong with what you did there.

 

But you did not take the same actions Zimmerman did. You didn't follow this man from a distance around the neighborhood for several minutes. The two scenarios, "hey buddy, you look lost, can I help you out?" and following the guy around are very different.

 

EDIT: Oh, last week, police caught the guys burglarizing a house a few blocks away from here, it turns out it was two black guys driving a light green minivan.

 

You'd have reason to be suspicious of a couple of black guys driving a green van based on crimes that recently occurred in your neighborhood and a description of the suspects. You wouldn't be reasonable to be suspicious of any black person walking down the street.

[StrangeSox]

In fairness I live on a dead end street, so it's a little different than most blocks. But still, there are a ton of kids on my block that play outside and my 1st is about to be one of them in the coming years. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to want to know what happens in your neighborhood.

 

It's not unreasonable to want to know what happens in your neighborhood. On the other hand, it is unreasonable for someone in my neighborhood (it's large and I wouldn't know many people on streets I don't frequently travel) to approach me and demand information or to call the police simply because they don't recognize me.

[Y2HH]

Well, what comes to my mind is the disconnect between those saying it is completely reasonable and normal to set out on foot and follow a random individual you are suspicious of and those saying you would be frightened if someone set out on foot and followed you around a neighborhood.

 

It can't be both, people.

 

It is either reasonable or it is not reasonable to do what Zimmerman did, and if it was reasonable, what reason would Martin have for being frightened?

 

Let me try to put it another way...

 

Say Martin had been looking to rob someone's house. What position was Zimmerman in to do about it? What good was going to come out of that situation?

 

I think Zimmerman's suspicion was reasonable, I've been in similar situations on both ends of the stick...but I do NOT think his actions following that suspicion were reasonable. I think this is the only fair assessment I can give when it comes to this.

[Balta1701]

The last 6 weeks there was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood (Clearing, IL...not far from Midway), two "dark skinned" males were said to be robbing houses and using a non descriptive "green van" to get away. No make, no model...just a green van. Rumor around my "hood" was that they'd first case the street they were looking to hit, separately, on foot before returning on a weekday when people were at work and hit a house when they knew nobody was home.

 

A few weeks ago I saw a dark skinned Latino walking down my street...and I know, I'm a f***ing racist...but I grew suspicious as to why! OMG, I know...how low and racist of me to profile like that. After he walked past my house, I walked out there and watched him walking about, seemingly aimlessly...and I asked him what he was looking for.

 

So he turned around and it turns out he was looking for a specific address, because his family lived there...who shortly after spotted him and came out to greet him and me...

 

You know what would have made me REALLY suspicious? If he suddenly put his hood up when I asked that question and started walking faster, you know...to get away from me.

 

AGAIN, as a final disclaimer. I'm NOT defending what Zimmerman did. I'm simply trying to tell you how and/or why Zimmerman had the right to be suspicious, DESPITE your claim he had no reason to be. Yes, he did. Just like I did. I would have simply called the police (and went to get my brother who lives across the street, who is the police), rather than arming myself and chasing him down...but I'm not Zimmerman, and I don't live in a place that let's me carry.

 

EDIT: Oh, last week, police caught the guys burglarizing a house a few blocks away from here, it turns out it was two black guys driving a light green minivan.

Now here's the problem. Do the exact same exercise from the other side.

 

You're in a neighborhood you're allowed to be in, a 17 year old, 150 lb 6'2" twig, it's raining, the sun set an hour beforehand so it's at the very least quite dark, you're trying to get home, walking with some skittles alone. You're on the phone with someone. Suddenly, some guy starts following you in his truck. He continues following you. You wonder if he's actually following you so you stop to look at him (stated in the 911 call), he stops and continues to look at you. He doesn't take any steps to identify himself. You start to move again, his truck resumes following you. You start to jog, he accelerates.

 

This goes on for a period of at least 8 minutes, based on the timing of phone calls, maybe longer depending on how long Zimmerman was following the kid prior to calling 911.

 

You hide. You think you've lost him. Then, he re-appears (Martin's call to his gf). Then, he gets out of his car and approaches you and yells "What're you doing around here?", again without identifying himself or his purpose. Then, whatever happens, it scares you enough that you wind up screaming (audio tape).

 

You're telling me that you'd just take that in stride? All of that happened before the gunshot. This was literally nearly a 10 minute chase of a car following a kid around the neighborhood. That had to seem like an eternity. And then he comes at you.

 

And in the end, you have every right to be afraid, because the guy's got a gun.

[Y2HH]

I'll back up a bit and modify what I was saying since I almost added that exact scenario to an earlier post. I don't see anything wrong with what you did there.

 

But you did not take the same actions Zimmerman did. You didn't follow this man from a distance around the neighborhood for several minutes. The two scenarios, "hey buddy, you look lost, can I help you out?" and following the guy around are very different.

 

 

 

You'd have reason to be suspicious of a couple of black guys driving a green van based on crimes that recently occurred in your neighborhood and a description of the suspects. You wouldn't be reasonable to be suspicious of any black person walking down the street.

 

Exactly. We agree 100% that Zimmerman took things too far and should NOT have followed, just as I wouldn't have followed. But that's us...not everyone will react the way we do or have. Zimmerman is obvious proof of that...there are those that take things further. If the world was populated with people just like you and I, there would be no crime. But that's not reality.