Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

Damn well better be scared of power tools. That's why a smart person takes appropriate protective steps before using them...because they are scared.

 

I don't wear safety shoes, gloves, eye protection and hearing protection because I'm scared or afraid.

[StrangeSox]

And what evidence do you have that those weren't justifiable killings? You're going from 12 to 35. That's not exactly a gigantic number. If it went from 12 to 300 you'd have a better argument.

 

I sense some google searching for previous-years statistics in my future!

 

And btw I can easily spin that back on you and claim that this law just saved an extra 23 people from being innocently murdered.

 

No, you can't.

[Balta1701]

I don't wear safety shoes, gloves, eye protection and hearing protection because I'm scared or afraid.

So what motivates you to wear them then?

[Jenksismyhero]

Guns are significantly more dangerous than my power tools by design.

 

I don't necessarily agree with this. A router or table saw or chop saw is an exposed metal blade that can slice off a hand with little effort. To hurt yourself with a gun requires more steps (turning the power on v. unlocking the safety and pulling the trigger).

 

Still, the point is ANYTHING can be used, purposefully or accidentally, as a killing device. Guns are no different.

[StrangeSox]

So what motivates you to wear them then?

 

Not an emotion I'd equate to fear.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, you can't.

 

Why the hell not? You're speculating that more justifiable killings (by number) means more preventable deaths. Why can't I speculate that all of those people were going to be murdered but not for their justifiable killing?

[Balta1701]

Not an emotion I'd equate to fear.

Certainly is for me. The end result of not doing so is potentially a serious injury. Taking steps to avoid that out of a fear of suffering a serious injury is what I'd classify it as.

 

Anyway...that's what I mean when I say I'm afraid of the person who isn't afraid of a gun. I'm afraid of the person who tells you that they know how to handle it safely. Really mean that. Because in my view...I don't go telling people I'm trustworthy, I take actions to demonstrate that.

 

Carrying around a concealed weapon, unless you're in a situation where there's a decent chance you're going to run into a bear, is almost always, IMO, an act that demonstrates a person has simply lost respect for that weapon. They think they can control it.

[StrangeSox]

I don't necessarily agree with this. A router or table saw or chop saw is an exposed metal blade that can slice off a hand with little effort. To hurt yourself with a gun requires more steps (turning the power on v. unlocking the safety and pulling the trigger).

 

Guns are designed to fire a projectile at high speed with the intent to kill or seriously damage the target. Accidental discharges are not extremely rare events, and sometimes a gun can just blow up (this literally happened this week during training some co-workers were providing). Not all guns have safeties, either, such as Glocks.

 

Still, the point is ANYTHING can be used, purposefully or accidentally, as a killing device. Guns are no different.

 

Guns are different in that their design intent is to fire a lethal projectile. My table saw is designed to cut wood.

[Jenksismyhero]

Certainly is for me. The end result of not doing so is potentially a serious injury. Taking steps to avoid that out of a fear of suffering a serious injury is what I'd classify it as.

 

Anyway...that's what I mean when I say I'm afraid of the person who isn't afraid of a gun. I'm afraid of the person who tells you that they know how to handle it safely. Really mean that. Because in my view...I don't go telling people I'm trustworthy, I take actions to demonstrate that.

 

Carrying around a concealed weapon, unless you're in a situation where there's a decent chance you're going to run into a bear, is almost always, IMO, an act that demonstrates a person has simply lost respect for that weapon. They think they can control it.

 

OMG dude. Have you ever handled a gun before? Seriously?

[StrangeSox]

Why the hell not? You're speculating that more justifiable killings (by number) means more preventable deaths. Why can't I speculate that all of those people were going to be murdered but not for their justifiable killing?

 

Who stops to consider legal consequences in legitimate kill-or-be-killed cases? I seriously doubt that the legal ramifications of the SYG law crossed Zimmerman's mind when he decided to shoot Trayvon.

 

The only way to make that argument work would be to assume that they would have been given the death penalty and killed by the state.

[Jenksismyhero]

Guns are designed to fire a projectile at high speed with the intent to kill or seriously damage the target. Accidental discharges are not extremely rare events, and sometimes a gun can just blow up (this literally happened this week during training some co-workers were providing). Not all guns have safeties, either, such as Glocks.

 

 

 

Guns are different in that their design intent is to fire a lethal projectile. My table saw is designed to cut wood.

 

Their intended use doesn't matter when you're debating whether something is inherently dangerous. Guns and power tools are inherently dangerous and life threatening if not used properly. If used properly, unless you win the product liability lottery, both can (and are) used safely, without issue, for the vast, vast majority of people.

[Balta1701]

OMG dude. Have you ever handled a gun before? Seriously?

Yes.

 

And it was under very controlled circumstances, where there are multiple safety steps in the way, because I don't trust it being safe. Because it isn't.

[Y2HH]

Yes.

 

And it was under very controlled circumstances, where there are multiple safety steps in the way, because I don't trust it being safe. Because it isn't.

 

Then how are you still here to tell about it if it was so unsafe?

[StrangeSox]

Certainly is for me. The end result of not doing so is potentially a serious injury. Taking steps to avoid that out of a fear of suffering a serious injury is what I'd classify it as.

 

Fear, to me, means an almost overwhelming emotional reaction, not a rhetorical statement. I understand what you're saying, but I would not use the same language to describe it. Nor does any professional safety culture I've seen.

 

Anyway...that's what I mean when I say I'm afraid of the person who isn't afraid of a gun. I'm afraid of the person who tells you that they know how to handle it safely. Really mean that. Because in my view...I don't go telling people I'm trustworthy, I take actions to demonstrate that.

 

Carrying around a concealed weapon, unless you're in a situation where there's a decent chance you're going to run into a bear, is almost always, IMO, an act that demonstrates a person has simply lost respect for that weapon. They think they can control it.

 

I wouldn't describe the healthy respect for the dangers of a particular tool or piece of equipment as being afraid of that tool or equipment.

 

[StrangeSox]

Their intended use doesn't matter when you're debating whether something is inherently dangerous. Guns and power tools are inherently dangerous and life threatening if not used properly. If used properly, unless you win the product liability lottery, both can (and are) used safely, without issue, for the vast, vast majority of people.

 

What are the number of accidental gun injuries and deaths compared to power tool injuries and deaths? They're both dangerous tools, but guns more so.

[Balta1701]

Then how are you still here to tell about it if it was so unsafe?

Same way I haven't killed myself by using HF. By knowing that it's inherently unsafe, acting that way, and taking every safety precaution I can think of. And even then, I'm still amazed that s*** hasn't killed me. Scares the bejeezus out of me every time.

 

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I'm safe to use HF, because it's not. You do everything you can to avoid getting hurt by it, but it touches your skin, you're f***ed.

 

Carrying around a loaded weapon and expecting the safety to protect you, or having weapons unlocked in a house...or having locked weapons where people can easily get to them...that's not acting like the item is inherently unsafe.

[Y2HH]

Same way I haven't killed myself by using HF. By knowing that it's inherently unsafe, acting that way, and taking every safety precaution I can think of. And even then, I'm still amazed that s*** hasn't killed me. Scares the bejeezus out of me every time.

 

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I'm safe to use HF, because it's not. You do everything you can to avoid getting hurt by it, but it touches your skin, you're f***ed.

 

Carrying around a loaded weapon and expecting the safety to protect you, or having weapons unlocked in a house...or having locked weapons where people can easily get to them...that's not acting like the item is inherently unsafe.

 

I don't know what HF is.

[Jenksismyhero]

What are the number of accidental gun injuries and deaths compared to power tool injuries and deaths? They're both dangerous tools, but guns more so.

 

You're a better googler than me, but i'd be willing to bet a lot that there are certainly more injuries from power tools than guns. That s*** happens daily, especially on work sites. Deaths, eh, the accidental discharge death has to be pretty rare, but i'm less sure on that.

[StrangeSox]

You're a better googler than me, but i'd be willing to bet a lot that there are certainly more injuries from power tools than guns. That s*** happens daily, especially on work sites. Deaths, eh, the accidental discharge death has to be pretty rare, but i'm less sure on that.

 

You'd have to look at some kind of use or ownership ratio.

[Jenksismyhero]

Same way I haven't killed myself by using HF. By knowing that it's inherently unsafe, acting that way, and taking every safety precaution I can think of. And even then, I'm still amazed that s*** hasn't killed me. Scares the bejeezus out of me every time.

 

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I'm safe to use HF, because it's not. You do everything you can to avoid getting hurt by it, but it touches your skin, you're f***ed.

 

Carrying around a loaded weapon and expecting the safety to protect you, or having weapons unlocked in a house...or having locked weapons where people can easily get to them...that's not acting like the item is inherently unsafe.

 

So basically your argument is that anyone that uses a gun will use it negligently, thus it's better just to ban them altogether.

[Balta1701]

I don't know what HF is.

Hydrofluoric acid.

 

If you get a drop of that on your skin, you won't feel it.

 

Until 3 hours later when you're in ungodly pain because the stuff has leached down to your bones and begun to dissolve them, pulling the calcium out towards your skin.

 

It's an industrial chemical we use constantly in sample preparation.

[StrangeSox]

So basically your argument is that anyone that uses a gun will use it negligently, thus it's better just to ban them altogether.

 

His argument is that guns are inherently dangerous and he would prefer that it not be legal to carry them around on your person all the time or leave them lying around your house loaded and unlocked.

[Balta1701]

So basically your argument is that anyone that uses a gun will use it negligently, thus it's better just to ban them altogether.

No. The argument is that the person who tells you that they know how to keep their gun safe has lost enough respect for the weapon to truly believe that they know how to keep it safe, to the point where they're happy to inform others that they know how to keep it safe.

[StrangeSox]

Hydrofluoric acid.

 

If you get a drop of that on your skin, you won't feel it.

 

Until 3 hours later when you're in ungodly pain because the stuff has leached down to your bones and begun to dissolve them, pulling the calcium out towards your skin.

 

It's an industrial chemical we use constantly in sample preparation.

 

Thanks for the nightmares for the next few weeks.

[Balta1701]

Thanks for the nightmares for the next few weeks.

If I tell myself "I'm safe using it", I'm going to wind up dead. I tell myself "Here are the procedures we have established to take care of this chemical, I'm going to rigorously follow those", and meanwhile, I'm going to be calm but terrified while doing so. And I will not sit here and tell you that I'm safe to use it, unlike whatever other person out there does something different...because it isn't safe to use, having it around puts you in mortal danger, and if you skip or neglect any safety step because you're confident it's ok...you're going to die.