Trayvon Martin

[kapkomet]

I don't think anyone would be driving around with one while being on a "Neighborhood watch" if they didn't think of it as a toy (at least at some level). Or buying "Concealed weapon pants" or whatever other hip trend there is out there.

 

 

I think that may be a little overboard, but I do think that there is a lack of profound respect for guns in general.

[Texsox]

I think that may be a little overboard, but I do think that there is a lack of profound respect for guns in general.

 

 

Usually by the anti crowd. The anti gun crowd blows guns way out of propertion more than the small minority of legal, law abiding gun owners who think of them as toys to be played with. I've been around a lot of gun owners, soend a lot of time on various Scout gun ranges, and I can't think of one that acts like Balta has painted some gun owners to act.

[Balta1701]

Usually by the anti crowd. The anti gun crowd blows guns way out of propertion more than the small minority of legal, law abiding gun owners who think of them as toys to be played with. I've been around a lot of gun owners, soend a lot of time on various Scout gun ranges, and I can't think of one that acts like Balta has painted some gun owners to act.

Except for the one that caused this thread.

[The Sir]

Except for the one that caused this thread.

 

You don't know how it went down that night. Zimmerman could have been acting in self defense. Maybe he is a clown who blew off escalation of force and killed a guy in cold blood, but we don't know that. You're just trying to smear gun owners.

[Balta1701]

You don't know how it went down that night. Zimmerman could have been acting in self defense. Maybe he is a clown who blew off escalation of force and killed a guy in cold blood, but we don't know that. You're just trying to smear gun owners.

No, the guy driving around with a concealed weapon who wound up killing an unarmed 17 year old who was walking home smeared gun owners quite effectively without my help.

[The Sir]

No, the guy driving around with a concealed weapon who wound up killing an unarmed 17 year old who was walking home smeared gun owners quite effectively without my help.

 

Driving around with a concealed weapon isn't a crime, whether you agree with it or not. And what if Trayvon attacked him like he claims? If the dude got blindsided and was getting his head smashed into the concrete, it's self defense. But we don't know what happened out there. So give it up.

[Balta1701]

Driving around with a concealed weapon isn't a crime, whether you agree with it or not. And what if Trayvon attacked him like he claims? If the dude got blindsided and was getting his head smashed into the concrete, it's self defense. But we don't know what happened out there. So give it up.

Saying it isn't a crime doesn't mean it's a good idea, and the fact that a 17 year old wound up dead should raise the honest question of whether or not the concealed carrying is a good idea.

[EvilMonkey]

Saying it isn't a crime doesn't mean it's a good idea, and the fact that a 17 year old wound up dead should raise the honest question of whether or not the concealed carrying is a good idea.

If the 17 year old was tryign to bash the other guy's head open on a sidewalk, I say it was a good idea. At least for George vs the alternative.

[Balta1701]

If the 17 year old was tryign to bash the other guy's head open on a sidewalk, I say it was a good idea. At least for George vs the alternative.

And if the strange, armed man was chasing the 17 year old down the street, bashing his head into a sidewalk seems like a reasonable defensive response. If only he was armed, he could have made it through.

[iamshack]

Would he have followed Martin if he had not have been carrying?

[The Sir]

Would he have followed Martin if he had not have been carrying?

 

Who cares? Verdicts aren't based on a guy's courage.

[farmteam]

Who cares? Verdicts aren't based on a guy's courage.

 

I'm guessing shack was getting at that Zimmerman might not have pursued Martin if Zimmerman didn't have a gun. And since even the claims that are most advantageous to Zimmerman concede that at some point he chose to follow Martin, then perhaps the situation would have been avoided if Zimmerman did not have a gun and would not have followed Martin for that reason. That would then tie into more of Balta's arguments on gun control, I think.

[StrangeSox]

Usually by the anti crowd. The anti gun crowd blows guns way out of propertion more than the small minority of legal, law abiding gun owners who think of them as toys to be played with. I've been around a lot of gun owners, soend a lot of time on various Scout gun ranges, and I can't think of one that acts like Balta has painted some gun owners to act.

pick up a gun magazine and look at all the toys for the special forces wanna-bes.

[Texsox]

Sure Balta one bad apple and all. BTW instead of comparing guns to cars, let's compare guns to something that does not serve any valuable purpose in our society, alcohol. You start looking for stories of irresponsible gun owners and I'll start looking for irresponsible drinkers and the damage they do. If we apply the same standards to everything else that you apply to guns nothing will be allowed.

 

This weekend a 13 year old kid died in a jet ski accident when the operator was irresponsible. Let's ban jet skis.

 

Utopian societies where all risks are eliminated does not work.

[Balta1701]

Sure Balta one bad apple and all. BTW instead of comparing guns to cars, let's compare guns to something that does not serve any valuable purpose in our society, alcohol. You start looking for stories of irresponsible gun owners and I'll start looking for irresponsible drinkers and the damage they do. If we apply the same standards to everything else that you apply to guns nothing will be allowed.

 

This weekend a 13 year old kid died in a jet ski accident when the operator was irresponsible. Let's ban jet skis.

 

Utopian societies where all risks are eliminated does not work.

Or, we place limits on Alcohol and arrest people for misusing it.

 

I think that you've just made a great comparison. Legalized concealed carry laws are just like legalizing DUI.

[iamshack]

I'm guessing shack was getting at that Zimmerman might not have pursued Martin if Zimmerman didn't have a gun. And since even the claims that are most advantageous to Zimmerman concede that at some point he chose to follow Martin, then perhaps the situation would have been avoided if Zimmerman did not have a gun and would not have followed Martin for that reason. That would then tie into more of Balta's arguments on gun control, I think.

Exactly...

 

The question is do the cc laws give people the courage to do things (oftentimes not the wisest things) they wouldn't ordinarily do because they feel a sense of security carrying a gun?

 

If so, then perhaps this is an unintended consequence of the cc laws.

[Balta1701]

Exactly...

 

The question is do the cc laws give people the courage to do things (oftentimes not the wisest things) they wouldn't ordinarily do because they feel a sense of security carrying a gun?

 

If so, then perhaps this is an unintended consequence of the cc laws.

Hopefully this was more than just "5 people" tested, hard to tell from this reading, but this was the most recent result that turned up on the Google, and I'm pretty sure quite a few studies have replicated this result...having access to a weapon makes people more paranoid, more aggressive, etc.

The researchers varied the situation in each experiment — such as having the people in the images sometimes wear ski masks, changing the race of the person in the image or changing the reaction subjects were to have when they judged the person in the image to hold a gun. Regardless of the situation, the study showed that responding with a gun created a bias in which observers reported a gun being present more often than they did responding with a ball. Thus, by virtue of affording the subject the opportunity to use a gun, he or she was more likely to classify objects in a scene as a gun and, as a result, to engage in threat-induced behavior, such as raising a firearm to shoot.

 

“Beliefs, expectations and emotions can all influence an observer’s ability to detect and to categorize objects as guns,” said James Brockmole, a professor of Psychology and a co-author of the study . “Now we know that a person’s ability to act in certain ways can bias their recognition of objects as well, and in dramatic ways. It seems that people have a hard time separating their thoughts about what they perceive and their thoughts about how they can or should act.”

 

The researchers showed that the ability to act is a key factor in the effects by showing that while simply letting observers see a nearby gun didn’t influence their behavior, holding and using the gun did.

 

“One reason we supposed that wielding a firearm might influence object categorization stems from previous research in this area, which argues that people perceive the spatial properties of their surrounding environment in terms of their ability to perform an intended action,” Brockmole said.

[Jenksismyhero]

Or, we place limits on Alcohol and arrest people for misusing it.

 

I think that you've just made a great comparison. Legalized concealed carry laws are just like legalizing DUI.

 

There already are restrictions with guns - who can buy them, when they can buy them, how they can keep them, etc. There are laws/penalties in place for your improper use of a gun. And people get arrested all the time for it. It's the exact same thing as a car or alcohol. You want a blanket ban on guns and you have yet to address the question of why not put a blanket ban on alcohol or cars or anything else people can use negligently that might result in the unfortunate death of someone.

 

[Texsox]

Or, we place limits on Alcohol and arrest people for misusing it.

 

I think that you've just made a great comparison. Legalized concealed carry laws are just like legalizing DUI.

 

Thank you for agreeing it is a great comparison. Of course you then tried twisting it in an illogical manner to suit your argument.

 

Legalizing CC laws is like the 21st Amendment, legalizing alcohol. We then arrest people for misusing guns or alcohol. You can safely carry a concealed weapon, you can not safely drive while drunk. You seem to believe that anyone carrying a weapon is automatically placing everyone else at risk like a drunk driver.

[iamshack]

Thank you for agreeing it is a great comparison. Of course you then tried twisting it in an illogical manner to suit your argument.

 

Legalizing CC laws is like the 21st Amendment, legalizing alcohol. We then arrest people for misusing guns or alcohol. You can safely carry a concealed weapon, you can not safely drive while drunk. You seem to believe that anyone carrying a weapon is automatically placing everyone else at risk like a drunk driver.

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with that...the distinction really is there is no benefit one can argue occurs due to being intoxicated and being behind the wheel of a vehicle, while the pro-gun lobby can at least formulate arguments for why there is a benefit to carrying a gun.

 

If you looked at it from a strictly statistical standpoint though, as they do with driving while intoxicated, I am sure they could frame an argument that there truly is no safe way to carry a concealed weapon.

[EvilMonkey]

I'm not necessarily sure I agree with that...the distinction really is there is no benefit one can argue occurs due to being intoxicated and being behind the wheel of a vehicle, while the pro-gun lobby can at least formulate arguments for why there is a benefit to carrying a gun.

 

If you looked at it from a strictly statistical standpoint though, as they do with driving while intoxicated, I am sure they could frame an argument that there truly is no safe way to carry a concealed weapon.

And yet hundreds of thousands of people DO carry every day without incident.

[iamshack]

And yet hundreds of thousands of people DO carry every day without incident.

And yet hundreds of thousands of people DO drive drunk every day without incident.

[Balta1701]

And yet hundreds of thousands of people DO carry every day without incident.

And thousands of people do drive home intoxicated without incident.

[Texsox]

And thousands of people do drive home intoxicated without incident.

 

yet you want to ban things when one tragedy happens.

[Balta1701]

yet you want to ban things when one tragedy happens.

Yeah, one tragedy is a good reason to ban DUI.