Trayvon Martin

[Balta1701]

lol, this is exactly why Zimmerman is a s***head.

And why these vigilantes shouldn't be carrying guns.

[Soxbadger]

I don't think it is.

 

By letting idiots wander around with guns, we're letting whoever can get a handgun permit decide to play judge, jury, and executioner.

 

The end result is the dead kid in this case, the dead 6 month old down the road from me, and piles upon piles of bodies per year.

 

But this legitimately has nothing to do with Zimmerman's case. Zimmerman can only be prosecuted by the laws that existed at the time of his action.

 

According to the law, he was allowed to carry a gun. I may disagree with that, I may think that allowing people to have guns is the stupidest thing in the world.

 

But that should have no impact on whether or not according to Florida law, Zimmerman is guilty of murder. It has no relevance.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I see. I guess with all that adrenaline pumping, I thought he'd be in a bit more shock and do something more erratic. To show that much poise in that situation shows a lot about Zimmerman.

 

The problem is we don't know what happened. And unlike Balta, I refuse to find Zimmerman guilty when we don't know if Martin turned around and just started beating the living s*** out of Zimmerman just for getting close to him.

 

This is perfectly reasonable scenario:

 

(1) there's been lots of crime in his neighborhood committed by black teens that the cops weren't doing anything to prevent or change.

 

(2) Zimmerman becomes much more active in his community/neighborhood watch

 

(3) Zimmerman sees a black teen in the neighborhood

 

(4) Racially motivated or not, he decides to tail him just to make sure

 

(5) Zimmerman gets too close for Martin's comfort, Martin freaks out and instead of telling the Zimmerman to leave him alone, he starts to beat the crap out of Zimmerman with little to no warning.

 

(6) as Zimmerman's head is being pounded into the curb, he legitimately fears his life is in danger and he pulls out his gun and shoots martin to prevent being killed himself.

 

An unfortunate circumstance, but nothing illegal. IF that's what happened, and i'm Zimmerman, and i'm incredibly thankful I was carrying a gun that day.

[Balta1701]

But this legitimately has nothing to do with Zimmerman's case. Zimmerman can only be prosecuted by the laws that existed at the time of his action.

 

According to the law, he was allowed to carry a gun. I may disagree with that, I may think that allowing people to have guns is the stupidest thing in the world.

 

But that should have no impact on whether or not according to Florida law, Zimmerman is guilty of murder. It has no relevance.

I don't think I said anywhere that it had any impact on anything relating to the case and I'm pretty sure I've said over and over he'll get away with it.

 

I just think this case is yet another example of why we need to get these guns out of the hands of idiots on the streets.

[Balta1701]

An unfortunate circumstance, but nothing illegal. IF that's what happened, and i'm Zimmerman, and i'm incredibly thankful I was carrying a gun that day.

And similarly, it's a shame that the 17 year old kid wasn't carrying a gun, because clearly his life was in danger from the strange guy in the truck stalking him on the way home.

 

That's how we should deal with any suspicious person. Whoever shoots first wins.

[Jenksismyhero]

lol, this is exactly why Zimmerman is a s***head.

 

Yeah, how terrible to be active about what's going on in your neighborhood instead of reactive.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Yeah, how terrible to be active about what's going on in your neighborhood instead of reactive.

Great. Go do all that and leave the gun at home before you kill a kid.

[Jenksismyhero]

And similarly, it's a shame that the 17 year old kid wasn't carrying a gun, because clearly his life was in danger from the strange guy in the truck stalking him on the way home.

 

That's how we should deal with any suspicious person. Whoever shoots first wins.

 

Based on what? Do you really think this was a cold-blooded killing?

[Balta1701]

Based on what? Do you really think this was a cold-blooded killing?

Based on the fact that he wound up dead, I think it is a very good guess that his life was in danger.

[Soxbadger]

Well that is ultimately the problem with this law. If I create a situation where the other person fears for their life and then they take actions to stop me, do I then have the right to kill them?

 

IE:

 

I am following someone down the street and they see that I am carrying a gun in a holster. There have been reports of someone similar to my description robbing people at gun point. The other person then turns around at me and pulls out their gun. I see the gun pointed at me, and I believe that the person who is pointing the gun, is the robber. I then shoot him.

 

I have basically created a scenario where I can commit murder 1 and get away with it, as long as the person who I was hoping to kill did something to legitimately threaten my life. And therein lies the problem.

 

Even if Martin looked threatening, even if he hit Zimmerman, we dont know if Martin was just acting because he felt Zimmerman was the aggressor. Ultimately this law makes it more advantageous to shoot first and ask questions later.

 

Its just not a good law.

[Jenksismyhero]

Based on the fact that he wound up dead, I think it is a very good guess that his life was in danger.

 

Even if he was the one that created the danger?

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Even if he was the one that created the danger?

 

And this is the problem and why it should be the defense burden to prove that the killing is justified. Otherwise I can create dangerous situations to murder people and make the prosecution have to prove that I wasnt in danger/justified, which is pretty difficult.

[Balta1701]

Even if he was the one that created the danger?

Damn right, that kid should have known better than to...walk home.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, how terrible to be active about what's going on in your neighborhood instead of reactive.

Yeah, pretty terrible to assume that young black male is likely to be a criminal, call the police on him, pursue him on foot, and end up killing him because you made one colossal error in judgement after another.

[Jenksismyhero]

And this is the problem and why it should be the defense burden to prove that the killing is justified. Otherwise I can create dangerous situations to murder people and make the prosecution have to prove that I wasnt in danger/justified, which is pretty difficult.

 

He's not using the SYG law though right? He's just using self-defense as his defense. That's still his burden to prove the killing was justified.

[Jenksismyhero]

Damn right, that kid should have known better than to...walk home.

 

Or overreact to someone that was following him?

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah, pretty terrible to assume that young black male is likely to be a criminal, call the police on him, pursue him on foot, and end up killing him because you made one colossal error in judgement after another.

 

Yeah I still don't see anything wrong with any of that. Not smart, but not wrong either.

[StrangeSox]

Even if he was the one that created the danger?

 

Martin was walking home minding his own business. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman doesn't prejudicially assume that this young black male is just another one of those "assholes" who "always get away" and is likely a criminal. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after calling the police, remains in his car. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after exiting his car with his gun, realizes that this situation is quickly escalating beyond what it needs to and gets back in his car. Even if Martin jumped the guy that had been stalking him through the neighborhood, Zimmerman still made many errors in judgement to get them both to that point.

[Balta1701]

He's not using the SYG law though right? He's just using self-defense as his defense. That's still his burden to prove the killing was justified.

And that's why this case should convince anyone of the stupidity of having people trolling around the streets with handguns. It turned into a self-defense case because he stalked and hunted an innocent kid.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, pretty terrible to assume that young black male is likely to be a criminal, call the police on him, pursue him on foot, and end up killing him because you made one colossal error in judgement after another.

 

 

Yeah I still don't see anything wrong with any of that. Not smart, but not wrong either.

 

Assuming a random young black male is probably a criminal is straight-up racist and wrong. Calling the police because you see a young black male is racist and wrong. Getting out of your car with a gun and chasing down a young black male because you think he's probably a criminal, though you've seen him do nothing wrong at all, is racist and wrong.

[Balta1701]

Assuming a random young black male is probably a criminal is straight-up racist and wrong. Calling the police because you see a young black male is racist and wrong. Getting out of your car with a gun and chasing down a young black male because you think he's probably a criminal, though you've seen him do nothing wrong at all, is racist and wrong.

People are allowed to be racist and wrong. No one dies from a person being racist and wrong. People die when people with guns are racist and wrong.

[Soxbadger]

He's not using the SYG law though right? He's just using self-defense as his defense. That's still his burden to prove the killing was justified.

 

Im not sure, Im expecting at the end of the Prosecutions case they move to dismiss the case based on SYG.

 

I really havent followed it that closely, so Im not sure how they have to approach it in Florida.

 

And then if its not SYG, Zimmerman is going to likely have to testify, because otherwise hes admitted to murder and the jury has to find him guilty unless the evidence proves he was justified, and even if the star witness for the prosecution is terrible, it in no way helps Zimmerman.

 

Im just somewhat uninformed.

[Jenksismyhero]

Martin was walking home minding his own business. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman doesn't prejudicially assume that this young black male is just another one of those "assholes" who "always get away" and is likely a criminal. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after calling the police, remains in his car. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after exiting his car with his gun, realizes that this situation is quickly escalating beyond what it needs to and gets back in his car. Even if Martin jumped the guy that had been stalking him through the neighborhood, Zimmerman still made many errors in judgement to get them both to that point.

 

People follow people all the time for a variety of reasons. If I overreact and start beating the s*** out of them for following me, they have every right to defend themselves.

[Balta1701]

Im not sure, Im expecting at the end of the Prosecutions case they move to dismiss the case based on SYG.

 

I really havent followed it that closely, so Im not sure how they have to approach it in Florida.

 

And then if its not SYG, Zimmerman is going to likely have to testify, because otherwise hes admitted to murder and the jury has to find him guilty unless the evidence proves he was justified, and even if the star witness for the prosecution is terrible, it in no way helps Zimmerman.

 

Im just somewhat uninformed.

Zimmerman's defense waived their right to holding a SYG hearing pre-trial. They can request it basically at any point it seems according to this quote:

During Tuesday's motions hearing, Zimmerman defense attorney Mark O'Mara told Judge Debra Nelson there was nothing in the law that required the immunity hearing to take place before Zimmerman's trial. O'Mara said the hearing could be requested after the defense has presented its case, but "we'd much rather have the jury address the issue of criminal liability or lack thereof."

[Jenksismyhero]

Assuming a random young black male is probably a criminal is straight-up racist and wrong. Calling the police because you see a young black male is racist and wrong. Getting out of your car with a gun and chasing down a young black male because you think he's probably a criminal, though you've seen him do nothing wrong at all, is racist and wrong.

 

Well i'm a big ol' racist because I would have done the exact same thing if this happened in my neighborhood and crime wasn't being addressed.

 

And I love the characterization of "chasing" him down. He tailed the guy. Why do you guys keep phrasing this as if Zimmerman went to make a citizens arrest with a gun?