Trayvon Martin

[Jenksismyhero]

People are allowed to be racist and wrong. No one dies from a person being racist and wrong. People die when people with guns are racist and wrong.

 

Or when people beat the s*** out of the wrong person!

[Balta1701]

People follow people all the time for a variety of reasons. If I overreact and start beating the s*** out of them for following me, they have every right to defend themselves.

A strange person following me for a period of 15-20 minutes (followed by getting out of the car and chasing me on foot) is pretty darn good reason to overreact and feel threatened. Shame he didn't have a gun.

[Balta1701]

Or when people beat the s*** out of the wrong person!

Someone else stalked him for 20 minutes and then came after him on foot?

[Balta1701]

Well i'm a big ol' racist because I would have done the exact same thing if this happened in my neighborhood and crime wasn't being addressed.

 

And I love the characterization of "chasing" him down. He tailed the guy. Why do you guys keep phrasing this as if Zimmerman went to make a citizens arrest with a gun?

He got out of the car and went after him on foot. That's pretty much "Chasing" by definition.

[Jenksismyhero]

A strange person following me for a period of 15-20 minutes (followed by getting out of the car and chasing me on foot) is pretty darn good reason to overreact and feel threatened. Shame he didn't have a gun.

 

Did he really chase after him? I don't remember hearing that. And hey, if you feel threatened keep walking home. Call the cops yourself. But I don't think he was threatened given what he supposedly told his friend on the phone about the cracka following him.

 

[Soxbadger]

In my uneducated opinion the SYG battle is still coming.

 

If there is no SYG Zimmerman would be in a tough spot, because hed basically have to waive his 5th amendment rights to put on any sort of defense.

[Jenksismyhero]

Alright, semantics I guess. It's not like he was running after Martin, which is what i thought you were implying.

[Soxbadger]

Jenks,

 

The problem with that logic is that I can easily argue the same:

 

"We wouldnt be here today if Zimmerman just went home and called the police."

 

The real problem is that they are both probably somewhat at fault. Neither of them are white hat heroes, neither are probably black hat criminals. They are just both grey. And in my opinion Martin has had to pay the consequence for his mistake, and if the world was truly built on fairness, Zimmerman would have to pay some consequence for his mistake.

 

I guess thats why people like to believe in heaven/hell. They like to take solace in the fact that there is some sort of ultimate arbitrator who will ensure in fairness.

 

But for people like me, there is no fairness, there just is.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Soxbadger

[zenryan]

Assuming a random young black male is probably a criminal is straight-up racist and wrong. Calling the police because you see a young black male is racist and wrong. Getting out of your car with a gun and chasing down a young black male because you think he's probably a criminal, though you've seen him do nothing wrong at all, is racist and wrong.

 

 

 

His own recordings to the dispatcher shows he didnt know if the guy was black or not. People keep throwing around the racist term but right now the only person showing to have issues about someone's race is Martin.

 

 

 

The state should contact some people in this thread because it appears they know exactly how everything went down that night.

[mr_genius]

no one really knows what happened, but after many requests for my opinion I will now speculate on how the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin went down:

 

 

Zimmerman sees Martin, Zimmerman believes Martin is some sort of criminal due to the fact that Marin is black and he is dressed up in one of his "gangster rapper" type outfits. There have been a lot of crimes in the neighborhood lately and Zimmerman is paranoid. Zimmerman begins noticeably and aggressively following Martin. Martin confronts Zimmerman. After a verbal altercation and Zimmerman's refusal to stop following him, Martin starts kicking Zimmerman's ass (that girly high pitched screaming heard on those tapes is Zimmerman). Zimmerman shoots Martin during the fight.

Edited June 28, 2013 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

"A black kid in a hoodie" = "gangster rapper" outfits.

 

Thankfully race has nothing to do with this.

[mr_genius]

"A black kid in a hoodie" = "gangster rapper" outfits.

 

Thankfully race has nothing to do with this.

 

Probably super baggy pants too, some type fancy basketball shoes perhaps or timberland boots, maybe a gang color cloth hanging from back pocket. But you are right, no one is scared of a white gangster rapper, so if Martin was white Zimmerman probably just leaves him alone, even if the white person was dressed identically to how Martin was that night.

 

 

[mr_genius]

"A black kid in a hoodie" = "gangster rapper" outfits.

 

Thankfully race has nothing to do with this.

 

if my speculative account of that nights events is accurate, what do you think Zimmerman's punishment should be?

[Balta1701]

if my speculative account of that nights events is accurate, what do you think Zimmerman's punishment should be?

Based on the laws of te state of Florida, nothing.

[zenryan]

if my speculative account of that nights events is accurate, what do you think Zimmerman's punishment should be?

 

 

 

what do you think his punishment should be based on the picture you painted?

 

 

because based on your speculative account, what laws were broken by Zimmerman? Even if Zimmerman started the verbal altercation, that doesnt mean Martin can beat the ever living hell out of Zimmerman. If Zimmerman did throw the first punch, that doesnt mean Martin can beat the hell out of Zimmerman to the point where Zimmerman fears for his life.

 

 

 

[mr_genius]

what do you think his punishment should be based on the picture you painted?

 

 

because based on your speculative account, what laws were broken by Zimmerman? Even if Zimmerman started the verbal altercation, that doesnt mean Martin can beat the ever living hell out of Zimmerman. If Zimmerman did throw the first punch, that doesnt mean Martin can beat the hell out of Zimmerman to the point where Zimmerman fears for his life.

 

I'm not a legal expert, so I don't know what the law states in Florida about such an altercation. I would need to get instructions about the law from the judge or something. But I would have a hard time letting Zimmerman off the hook on this one with an innocent verdict. Seems like manslaughter to me.

 

If Zimmerman throws the first punch that changes things a lot to me. I would convict him of murder.

Edited June 28, 2013 by mr_genius

[StrangeSox]

Well i'm a big ol' racist because I would have done the exact same thing if this happened in my neighborhood and crime wasn't being addressed.

 

Yes, this is. Full stop. Assuming that any random young black male is probably a criminal because there was a couple of break-ins over the past year is blatantly racist.

Edited June 28, 2013 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

It's not exactly prejudiced if the crimes committed in that neighborhood were mostly done by people fitting his general description.

So all black males in the neighborhood are now rightfully viewed as suspicious?

[StrangeSox]

no one really knows what happened, but after many requests for my opinion I will now speculate on how the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin went down:

 

 

Zimmerman sees Martin, Zimmerman believes Martin is some sort of criminal due to the fact that Marin is black and he is dressed up in one of his "gangster rapper" type outfits. There have been a lot of crimes in the neighborhood lately and Zimmerman is paranoid. Zimmerman begins noticeably and aggressively following Martin. Martin confronts Zimmerman. After a verbal altercation and Zimmerman's refusal to stop following him, Martin starts kicking Zimmerman's ass (that girly high pitched screaming heard on those tapes is Zimmerman). Zimmerman shoots Martin during the fight.

That's a very plausible scenario. The only thing is we don't know who got physical first, and that's pretty important.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not a legal expert, so I don't know what the law states in Florida about such an altercation. I would need to get instructions about the law from the judge or something. But I would have a hard time letting Zimmerman off the hook on this one with an innocent verdict. Seems like manslaughter to me.

 

If Zimmerman throws the first punch that changes things a lot to me. I would convict him of murder.

same.

[StrangeSox]

His own recordings to the dispatcher shows he didnt know if the guy was black or not. People keep throwing around the racist term but right now the only person showing to have issues about someone's race is Martin.

 

 

 

The state should contact some people in this thread because it appears they know exactly how everything went down that night.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326...-zimmerman.html

 

"Zimmerman: He looks black"

 

 

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/tray...mp;spr_id=18880

 

Why did he follow Martin, a police officer asks.

 

“These assholes, they always get away,” Zimmerman answers.

 

The officer asks, “What’s behind that?”

 

“These people who victimize the neighborhood,” Zimmerman answers.

 

In Zimmerman’s angry mind, without trial or jury, even after he killed him and learned he was a 17-year-old who was legitimately staying in the complex, Martin was an asshole victimizing the neighborhood.

[Balta1701]

You being intentionally obtuse is so annoying. Opening fire on someone you think is tailing you is in no way similar to believing your life is in danger because someone is physically beating you.

But responding physically to a person who tails you both in a car and then on foot is entirely reasonable. If I had a person following me down the block, who obviously was after me, stopped when I stopped, got out and tried to chase me, and I couldn't get to the police, I'm going into self protection mode and maybe attacking this person.

 

If nothing else, in this country, I have to figure "This guy following me may have a gun and my life could be in danger".

 

Challenging that person physically would be determined as self defense. Shooting blindly would be considered unjustified force, but once a confrontation started, whoever pulls the trigger first is justified in doing so.

 

(Assume for a moment that the legal system would believe a black kid). If Martin had testified that he was being followed by the guy, the guy got out of the car, approached him, he tried to get away, a physical confrontation ensued, while the 2 of them were down on the ground he saw that the guy had a gun, grabbed it and pulled the trigger, wouldn't that be the exact same situation? Whoever shoots first was in the right.

[StrangeSox]

Wouldn't Martin have been justified in drawing down on this weird man following him through the neighborhood and standing his ground?

[Balta1701]

Wouldn't Martin have been justified in drawing down on this weird man following him through the neighborhood and standing his ground?

Personally I'd judge pulling a gun immediately to be excessive force, but I think a civilian pulling a gun is always excessive force.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, this is. Full stop. Assuming that any random young black male is probably a criminal because there was a couple of break-ins over the past year is blatantly racist.

 

I'm happily a racist in that scenario. IIRC, the neighborhood didn't have many blacks in it and Zimmerman had never seen Martin before. You just need to get over your white guilt.