Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

I'm happily a racist in that scenario. IIRC, the neighborhood didn't have many blacks in it and Zimmerman had never seen Martin before. You just need to get over your white guilt.

 

You're trying to justify assuming a random young black male is likely to be a criminal because they're a random young black male. I'd say you need to get over your explicit racism more than I need to get over "white guilt," which is just a dumb concept racists use as a shield when they're called out for being racist. I mean, you're basically telling me that I should "get over my white guilt" so that I can comfortably be racist.

 

Now consider how many people share your views and then tell me that systemic racism isn't a real force in this country. That Henry Louis Gates didn't suffer from the exact same form of racism when it was assumed he was a criminal because he was trying to get into his own home. That millions of other young black men don't suffer from the same prejudices and bigotry.

Edited June 28, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

BTW, can we all agree that Martin was also a dirty racist? I mean, he called a hispanic guy a cracker...

[Jenksismyhero]

You're trying to justify assuming a random young black male is likely to be a criminal because they're a random young black male. I'd say you need to get over your explicit racism more than I need to get over "white guilt," which is just a dumb concept racists use as a shield when they're called out for being racist.

 

Now consider how many people share your views and then tell me that systemic racism isn't a real force in this country. That Henry Louis Gates didn't suffer from the exact same form of racism when it was assumed he was a criminal because he was trying to get into his own home. That millions of other young black men don't suffer from the same prejudices and bigotry.

 

You can keep ignoring the context to make your point but I won't.

 

 

[Y2HH]

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see *ANYONE* I don't recognize roaming around where I live, I'm suspicious of them. But when I see someone that's COMPLETELY out of the ordinary for the area, if being extra suspicious makes me a racist, then fine, I'm a racist. I think this is a weak argument, however, and has nothing to do with racism so much as it has to do with observation. I'd feel the same as people observing me if I was roaming around Englewood for some reason. Would they be racists for saying, "WTF is there a crazy ass white guy walking around here for?!" IMO, no. They'd simply be observing a crazy ass white guy was roaming in a place totally out of the ordinary for him.

[mr_genius]

But responding physically to a person who tails you both in a car and then on foot is entirely reasonable. If I had a person following me down the block, who obviously was after me, stopped when I stopped, got out and tried to chase me, and I couldn't get to the police, I'm going into self protection mode and maybe attacking this person.

 

I think Zimmerman knew this. Zimmerman must have been following Martin very closely at one point, as Zimmerman's own account of the events state that Martin punched him before he knew what was going on. So Zimmerman was likely at arms length following him, even refusing to stop his pursuit after requests/demands from Martin to stop doing so. I think Zimmerman fully knew that his actions that night could very well start a physical altercation, that's why he brought a gun with him.

[Jenksismyhero]

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see *ANYONE* I don't recognize roaming around where I live, I'm suspicious of them. But when I see someone that's COMPLETELY out of the ordinary for the area, if being extra suspicious makes me a racist, then fine, I'm a racist. I think this is a weak argument, however, and has nothing to do with racism so much as it has to do with observation. I'd feel the same as people observing me if I was roaming around Englewood for some reason. Would they be racists for saying, "WTF is there a crazy ass white guy walking around here for?!" IMO, no. They'd simply be observing a crazy ass white guy was roaming in a place totally out of the ordinary for him.

 

Exactly. If my block was having issues with white teenagers stealing s***, guess what, if I see a white teenager I don't know, i'm going to think "hey, he might be one of those kids stealing s***."

 

[StrangeSox]

You can keep ignoring the context to make your point but I won't.

 

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male.

[StrangeSox]

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see *ANYONE* I don't recognize roaming around where I live, I'm suspicious of them. But when I see someone that's COMPLETELY out of the ordinary for the area, if being extra suspicious makes me a racist, then fine, I'm a racist. I think this is a weak argument, however, and has nothing to do with racism so much as it has to do with observation. I'd feel the same as people observing me if I was roaming around Englewood for some reason. Would they be racists for saying, "WTF is there a crazy ass white guy walking around here for?!" IMO, no. They'd simply be observing a crazy ass white guy was roaming in a place totally out of the ordinary for him.

Black people live in this community/development/whatever you want to call it. Immediately viewing anyone who's black as out-of-place and suspicious is racist.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think Zimmerman knew this. Zimmerman must have been following Martin very closely at one point, as Zimmerman's own account of the events state that Martin punched him before he knew what was going on. So Zimmerman was likely at arms length following him, even refusing to stop his pursuit after requests/demands from Martin to stop doing so. I think Zimmerman fully knew that his actions that night could very well start a physical altercation, that's why he brought a gun with him.

 

I think there was evidence that he carried a gun all the time, but I might be wrong about that.

[Y2HH]

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male.

 

This couldn't be more wrong.

 

There is plenty of context to justify this.

 

To name a few really REALLY simple ones:

 

1) An amber alert is issued in your area, a child is missing, last seen being taken by a random black male walking down the sidewalk. You see a random black male walking down the sidewalk with a kid. Is it the person you're looking for? Maybe not. But would it be unjustified to think so? Nope.

 

2) You've been experiencing break-ins in your neighborhood the last few weeks and the police post a notice that there are two Mexican males breaking into homes in your area. You see two random Mexican males roaming around the alley shortly after. Are you justified to think it's them? Yes. You are.

 

There are PLENTY of cases where such context matters, and to say otherwise is truly grasping at straws.

 

You're trying so hard to sound like you're not a racist, I'm becoming inclined to think you are. You shouldn't have to be trying this hard. I mean, for f***s sake, there is no context? LOL worthy.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male.

 

...in the same age group as other black teens that have been committing crimes in a GATED neighborhood.

 

[StrangeSox]

...in the same age group as other black teens that have been committing crimes in a GATED neighborhood.

Good argument for abolishing all white segregationist gated communities that view any black people as suspicious and likely criminals.

[mr_genius]

BTW, can we all agree that Martin was also a dirty racist? I mean, he called a hispanic guy a cracker...

 

Yea, this guy wasn't the saintly grade school lad as being portrayed in the media.

[Y2HH]

Good argument for abolishing all white segregationist gated communities that view any black people as suspicious and likely criminals.

 

While Zimmerman is a mixed race, I think calling this guy white is a stretch of immense proportions. He doesn't look white. At all. So that segregationist gated community must also be ok with Hispanics.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yea, this guy wasn't the saintly grade school lad as being portrayed in the media.

 

But he was eating skittles! Only saintly kids eat skittles...

 

[StrangeSox]

This couldn't be more wrong.

 

There is plenty of context to justify this.

 

To name a few really REALLY simple ones:

 

1) An amber alert is issued in your area, a child is missing, last seen being taken by a random black male walking down the sidewalk. You see a random black male walking down the sidewalk with a kid. Is it the person you're looking for? Maybe not. But would it be unjustified to think so? Nope.

 

I'd argue that yeah, it would be a poor assumption. Somebody who had abducted a child would not likely be strolling down the street with that child.

 

2) You've been experiencing break-ins in your neighborhood the last few weeks and the police notice that there are two mexican males breaking into homes in your area. You see two random mexicans roaming around the alley. Are you justified to think it's them? Yes. You are.

 

You're inserting context that doesn't exist in the real-life case. Martin wasn't loitering around in an alley, he was walking down the main sidewalk. He wasn't doing anything suspicious. My statement was that here's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male. Martin was judged to be a likely criminal because he was a young black male, not because of any behavioral context.

 

There are PLENTY of cases where such context matters.

 

You're trying so hard to sound like you're not a racist, I'm becoming inclined to think you are. You shouldn't have to be trying this hard. I mean, for f***s sake, there is no context? LOL worthy.

 

There's no context where assuming that a young black male strolling down the sidewalk in the evening is probably a criminal because there's been some break-ins in the past few months isn't racist.

 

I'm not really 'trying' to sound like I'm not racist. I'm pointing out that anyone who justifies and agrees with Zimmerman's assumption that this unknown young black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal is engaged in racially motivated bigotry, or, more bluntly, racism. It doesn't take effort to not be racist here.

[Y2HH]

I'd argue that yeah, it would be a poor assumption. Somebody who had abducted a child would not likely be strolling down the street with that child.

 

 

 

You're inserting context that doesn't exist in the real-life case. Martin wasn't loitering around in an alley, he was walking down the main sidewalk. He wasn't doing anything suspicious. My statement was that here's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male. Martin was judged to be a likely criminal because he was a young black male, not because of any behavioral context.

 

 

 

There's no context where assuming that a young black male strolling down the sidewalk in the evening is probably a criminal because there's been some break-ins in the past few months isn't racist.

 

I'm not really 'trying' to sound like I'm not racist. I'm pointing out that anyone who justifies and agrees with Zimmerman's assumption that this unknown young black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal is engaged in racially motivated bigotry, or, more bluntly, racism. It doesn't take effort to not be racist here.

 

I'm not applying what I said to what happened between Zimmerman and Martin.

 

I'm merely saying that such context CAN exist, whereas you said it could NEVER exist, under ANY circumstance. And I disagree.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

While Zimmerman is a mixed race, I think calling this guy white is a stretch of immense proportions. He doesn't look white. At all. So that segregationist gated community must also be ok with Hispanics.

There's also black families that live there, too. Hope they don't ever have some black friends over, though, lest they get the police called on them for walking down the sidewalk. Or worse.

 

that was more a tangential shot at the whole gated community concept

[StrangeSox]

But he was eating skittles! Only saintly kids eat skittles...

 

He was eating skittles and drinking iced tea. He was walking home from the store. Because he happened to be black while doing so, someone else assumed that he was probably a criminal and called the police. That same person decided to get out of his car with a gun and follow him. He ended up dead because of this.

 

And yet you're "happily a racist" in this scenario.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not applying what I said to what happened between Zimmerman and Martin.

 

I'm merely saying that such context CAN exist, whereas you said it could NEVER exist, under ANY circumstance. And I disagree.

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male. Period. At least outside of Jim Crow and Black Codes.

[Y2HH]

He was eating skittles and drinking iced tea. He was walking home from the store. Because he happened to be black while doing so, someone else assumed that he was probably a criminal and called the police. That same person decided to get out of his car with a gun and follow him. He ended up dead because of this.

 

And yet you're "happily a racist" in this scenario.

 

To be fair, I'm not sure he meant in this specific scenario, but scenarios like it with proper context.

 

I'm not sure the context fits in THIS specific case, however, because as you've said, this was a pretty mixed race community...so seeing someone of a different race in the area isn't much justification of suspicion.

 

Where we disconnect is when you say there is NEVER such justification. And I disagree with that, wholeheartedly.

[StrangeSox]

To be fair, I'm not sure he meant in this specific scenario, but scenarios like it with proper context.

 

I'm not sure the context fits in THIS specific case, however, because as you've said, this was a pretty mixed race community...so seeing someone of a different race in the area isn't much justification of suspicion.

 

Where we disconnect is when you say there is NEVER such justification. And I disagree with that, wholeheartedly.

Let me clarify here, because I think there's some miscommunication:

 

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal solely because they're an unknown black male.

[Y2HH]

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal because they're an unknown black male. Period. At least outside of Jim Crow and Black Codes.

 

Again, yes, there is.

 

If there is an outstanding neighborhood notice that a random black male has been spotted in an all white area, and you just happened to see a random black male moments after hearing such news, I think you might be justified in jumping to such a conclusion, even if it ends up being wrong, merely because of how coincidental the news is and how out of the ordinary the person is.

 

That said, I don't think you should rush the person and shoot them because of such a circumstance...but I think you'd be justified to be suspicious in light of said circumstance.

 

And again, this does NOT apply to Zimmerman/Martin, being that Martin wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the area.

[Y2HH]

Let me clarify here, because I think there's some miscommunication:

 

There's no context that justifies assuming any unknown black male walking down the sidewalk is probably a criminal solely because they're an unknown black male.

 

Agreed then.

 

I agree that THIS would be racism/prejudice speaking.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Again, yes, there is.

 

If there is an outstanding neighborhood notice that a random black male has been spotted in an all white area, and you just happened to see a random black male moments after hearing such news, I think you might be justified in jumping to such a conclusion, even if it ends up being wrong, merely because of how coincidental the news is and how out of the ordinary the person is.

 

Tangential but again highlights exactly the sort of problems that segregation, whether de facto or de jure, creates.