Trayvon Martin

[pettie4sox]

What were the circumstances here, really? Over the previous year, there had been a few break-ins by some black males. He sees a black male walking down the sidewalk minding his own business. How is that reasonable or justified suspicion?

 

 

 

This is where I have to very strongly disagree. Racism is much more than open KKK-style cross burnings an lynchings. It's public policy, it's subconscious prejudices and snap judgments, its treating people differently, even if subtly, and it's seen in the vastly different incarceration and sentencing rates for similar crimes, employment gaps regardless of educational level, prejudice in hiring based on 'funny' names on a resume, etc.

 

I dunno SS, what people don't know doesn't hurt them. You can profile and hate all you want. It's just when it becomes public that it's shunned. I think racism deals more with unjustified disdain for a race. Being concerned at black youth roaming around isn't inherently racist, it's just being concerned. I give people the benefit of the doubt for the most part. Sometimes you just get that gut feeling on people saying they are bad news. Now I will say I have been around enough black people to tell the difference between a bad news one and a non threatening one. That is something white people can ill afford since usually they haven't had a whole lot of interaction with black people. Hell, white people run from me and I'm probably one of the most professional looking black folk out there.

 

My girlfriend got mugged by black youth six months ago. She was out with her girlfriends and didn't want to be racist by crossing the street and avoiding them. Instead of going with their instincts, she got a gun pulled on her as a result. Gratefully, she just lost some stuff.

 

Now she goes with her instincts. Is she racist for that?

Edited June 28, 2013 by pettie4sox

[Jenksismyhero]

And what drives me nuts is...if Martin felt that the guy tailing him was threatening him, doesn't he have every right to defend himself as well?

 

Both of them have the right to do what they did and the end result is that a kid is dead who should never have been. That's why I keep coming back to the gun. If a guy is following me, it's not unreasonable to assume he's a threat to me and try to defend myself. If I get attacked physically by a guy I was following, it's not unreasonable to try and defend myself.

 

The way you make this situation not happen is to get rid of the gun. That should be the message of this case...dead kids are the end result of armed, untrained, vigilante-wannabees.

 

I don't think being tailed by someone leads to a fear of imminent deadly harm/death.

[Soxbadger]

And Martin could have hung up the phone with his friend and called 911 and reported Zimmerman. Or he could have told Zimmerman to f*** off and continued home. But he didn't.

 

Interesting because that is what Martin did:

 

Zimmerman: No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. s***, he's running.

 

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

 

So lets look at the real facts.

 

Martin ran away when the suspicious Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman then began to pursue him....

 

Once again, Zimmerman had no right to be pursuing Martin and it was expressly against the order of the 911 dispatcher.

 

If someone started chasing me in my neighborhood as a kid and I didnt think I could get away, Id have no choice but to try and confront them to hopefully save my life...

 

Remember, Martin lived there too, he was younger than Zimmerman, we generally do not like adults chasing minors with guns for no reason.

 

The call ended at 7:15, by 7:17 Martin was dead. Zimmerman while armed, aggressively chased an unarmed child.

 

I guarantee if instead of Martin, it was 17 year old me, we wouldnt be having these conversations, because there is no way that these same people would let Zimmerman an armed adult shoot an unarmed white kid who he chased with a gun.

 

Its nonsense.

[Balta1701]

I don't think being tailed by someone leads to a fear of imminent deadly harm/death.

20 minutes of being followed by a guy in a car followed by him getting out and coming after you?

 

Yeah this guy means to hurt me. Either he's going to try to rob me or he wants to kidnap me. That'd be my conclusion.

[Soxbadger]

I don't think being tailed by someone leads to a fear of imminent deadly harm/death.

 

Yeah it does. If you are in your own neighborhood, see some suspicious guy with a gun and you start to run and he runs after you, what do you think is going to happen?

 

I mean think about it. Imagine if your 17 year old son comes home and says "Some random guy chased me with a gun"

 

Would your answer be like?

 

Oh that seems reasonable, you should have stopped and talked to him.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Zimmerman made his mistake being too aggressive. I think his actions (being suspicious not pursuing TM) were justified considering the circumstances. I just think he lost his composure due to the criminal activities and took things into his own hands. He probably thought TM was going to just lay down. He was wrong, there was a scuffle, and the kid got shot dead. GZ could have used context clues and tact to diffuse the situation but I imagine they both went into meathead mode.

 

2nd degree murder is just the wrong charge. Maybe negligent homicide or manslaughter (they might be the same, I'm no lawyer).

 

I'm a black man myself and I am even suspicious of black folks. I know what some are capable of. If white people were like that, I'd be suspcious of them to. The fact is, it isn't a case for racism as much being concerned. Racist is like the KKK who just hate to hate. Having concerns doesn't make you a racist.

White people commit crime too, you know...it ain't only blacks and Mexicans.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Its a tough one. I just dont like the idea that someone can follow me around and if I get nervous or try and protect myself, he may then have the right to shoot me?

 

It just seems circular. I also think (and correct me if Im wrong) that the fact 911 told Zimmerman to stop pursuing should be strong evidence that Zimmerman should face some consequence.

 

If he had just listened multiple lives arent ruined. The only time you should be a hero like that, is if you actually see a violent crime taking place or imminently going to occur.

 

Zimmerman is likely just a scared guy who freaked out once a real fight started and maybe even legitimately believed he was going to be killed.

 

The situation just should have never happened.

This is where I stand...the whole situation would have been avoided had that meathead just stayed pat like the dispatcher told him to and wait for the cops to handle it.

 

That simple

[Jenksismyhero]

Interesting because that is what Martin did:

 

 

 

So lets look at the real facts.

 

Martin ran away when the suspicious Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman then began to pursue him....

 

Once again, Zimmerman had no right to be pursuing Martin and it was expressly against the order of the 911 dispatcher.

 

If someone started chasing me in my neighborhood as a kid and I didnt think I could get away, Id have no choice but to try and confront them to hopefully save my life...

 

Remember, Martin lived there too, he was younger than Zimmerman, we generally do not like adults chasing minors with guns for no reason.

 

The call ended at 7:15, by 7:17 Martin was dead. Zimmerman while armed, aggressively chased an unarmed child.

 

I guarantee if instead of Martin, it was 17 year old me, we wouldnt be having these conversations, because there is no way that these same people would let Zimmerman an armed adult shoot an unarmed white kid who he chased with a gun.

 

Its nonsense.

 

Or from Zimmerman's perspective, you have someone matching the general description of prior robbers wearing a hoodie and after he spots you tailing him he bolts. How do cops respond to a situation like that? "Oh, I guess he was just fearful we were going to kidnap him! That's why they run like that."

 

And Zimmerman had every right to pursue him. As the homeowners assoc. guy testified, they cops told them that was ok. Even if he ran after him, maybe he just ran to catch up to him to keep him in his line of sight. I have no idea how or why they got so close, but if all Zimmerman was doing was keeping close to Martin until the cops came, he's did nothing wrong.

 

And stop with that Martin as a kid nonsense. He was 17. Zimmerman is 29. This isn't an old man taking advantage of a grade school kid.

[Balta1701]

This is where I stand...the whole situation would have been avoided had that meathead just stayed pat like the dispatcher told him to and wait for the cops to handle it.

 

That simple

Even if he made that mistake and didn't listen to the dispatcher...everyone would have lived if he hadn't been armed.

[pettie4sox]

White people commit crime too, you know...it ain't only blacks and Mexicans.

 

Nice cherry picking there. You knew what I meant.

 

Of course all races commit crimes but there are races that get their crimes magnified in depth more so than others. Adam Lanza shoots up 20+ kids/adults. "Well he had mental problems, he's just one guy!" A black/mexican robs someone. "Those blacks and mexicans are ruining this great country!"

Edited June 28, 2013 by pettie4sox

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah it does. If you are in your own neighborhood, see some suspicious guy with a gun and you start to run and he runs after you, what do you think is going to happen?

 

I mean think about it. Imagine if your 17 year old son comes home and says "Some random guy chased me with a gun"

 

Would your answer be like?

 

Oh that seems reasonable, you should have stopped and talked to him.

 

Is there evidence that Martin was aware of the gun?

[Balta1701]

Is there evidence that Martin was aware of the gun?

The only witness to that is dead.

[Jenksismyhero]

Even if he made that mistake and didn't listen to the dispatcher...everyone would have lived if he hadn't been armed.

 

You don't know that. What if Zimmerman hit that curb one time too many? People are killed all the time from fights that start off with no intent of death.

[zenryan]

The 'description' was "black guy." That's it. That doesn't justify stopping any and every black guy walking down the sidewalk. Knowing how this tends to play out in reality, this happens much, much, much more frequently to minorities than it happens to white people.

 

Simply being black while walking down the street should never be a reason to stop somebody, assume they're a criminal and question them as such. That's how systemic racism works, how distrust for the police is built up, how some communities get targeted and policed much more heavily than other communities.

 

 

 

Then I must be a racist every M-F by your definition.

 

For my job, there are times I visit accounts in areas that arent the greatest. There is one particular store where I get hit up for spare change quite often. They all have the same story, just got out of jail, dropped off at the bus stop across the street and doesnt have any money. They also all look the same even though I've been hit up by white,black and hispanic people. They are usually wearing jorts or worn down pants, a t-shirt, for the most part tatted up and usually appears to be wandering around the parking lot with no certain direction. So when I'm headed back to my car and see a guy atleast looking respectable and neat then I have no worries. But when I see someone as I described between my car and looking around then I get my excuses ready. And I'd say the overwhelming majority I'm correct on my assumptions.

 

 

It's easy to just call it racist. I think its more along the lines of profiling.

[Jenksismyhero]

The only witness to that is dead.

 

But we do have someone he was talking to and Martin never mentioned that. Pretty sure if I think my life is in imminent danger and i'm talking to someone on the phone i'm not going to say "man, this cracker is following me." I'm going to say "oh s***! this guy has a gun and is chasing me! I gotta call the cops!"

[MexSoxFan#1]

I hope I never have to walk through Jenks neighborhood...

[Soxbadger]

Or from Zimmerman's perspective, you have someone matching the general description of prior robbers wearing a hoodie and after he spots you tailing him he bolts. How do cops respond to a situation like that? "Oh, I guess he was just fearful we were going to kidnap him! That's why they run like that."

 

And Zimmerman had every right to pursue him. As the homeowners assoc. guy testified, they cops told them that was ok. Even if he ran after him, maybe he just ran to catch up to him to keep him in his line of sight. I have no idea how or why they got so close, but if all Zimmerman was doing was keeping close to Martin until the cops came, he's did nothing wrong.

 

And stop with that Martin as a kid nonsense. He was 17. Zimmerman is 29. This isn't an old man taking advantage of a grade school kid.

 

1) Zimmerman is not a cop, he does not have a uniform, he is not in a squad car. If a police officer shot Martin after Martin hit him, we arent having this conversation. Police have authority that surpasses a normal citizen.

 

2) No you dont. No one has the right to chase me with a gun in my neighborhood. I guarantee if Zimmerman chased me in Lake County with a gun hed go to jail.

 

3) According to the law Martin is a minor. It is relevant because Martin, unlike Zimmerman, could not even legally have a gun. Therefore he could not even protect himself the same way as Zimmerman. Its not about taking advantage, its about the fact that children (under 18) are treated differently by the law. And generally adults have more responsibility to act "reasonable" than a child.

 

I sincerely hope one day your kid is not chased by a man with a gun, I really do, because I would hate for you to have to tell your child how that man had every right to run after him, because well, he was just a kid walking on the street, and that gives someone the right to chase them with a gun.

 

its a joke.

[Jenksismyhero]

I hope I never have to walk through Jenks neighborhood...

 

Especially if you're not white!

[Balta1701]

But we do have someone he was talking to and Martin never mentioned that. Pretty sure if I think my life is in imminent danger and i'm talking to someone on the phone i'm not going to say "man, this cracker is following me." I'm going to say "oh s***! this guy has a gun and is chasing me! I gotta call the cops!"

The only time they physically approached each other was during the seconds of the confrontation. Prior to that Zimmerman was in his vehicle. Unless he was waving the gun out of the window, the first time Martin could have seen that he was armed was during the confrontation, and by all accounts there were only a few seconds in there. There was never time to say "oh s*** this guy has a gun and is chasing me", by the time the gun could have been seen they were already right next to each other. He may well have seen that the guy was armed or realized during the confrontation, but only 2 people knew that...one who won't tell you and one who is dead.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Nice cherry picking there. You knew what I meant.

 

Of course all races commit crimes but there are races that get their crimes magnified in depth more so than others. Adam Lanza shoots up 20+ kids/adults. "Well he had mental problems, he's just one guy!" A black/mexican robs someone. "Those blacks and mexicans are ruining this great country!"

By a racist media that magnifies what minorities do. Whites also commit robberies.

[Jenksismyhero]

1) Zimmerman is not a cop, he does not have a uniform, he is not in a squad car. If a police officer shot Martin after Martin hit him, we arent having this conversation. Police have authority that surpasses a normal citizen.

 

2) No you dont. No one has the right to chase me with a gun in my neighborhood. I guarantee if Zimmerman chased me in Lake County with a gun hed go to jail.

 

3) According to the law Martin is a minor. It is relevant because Martin, unlike Zimmerman, could not even legally have a gun. Therefore he could not even protect himself the same way as Zimmerman. Its not about taking advantage, its about the fact that children (under 18) are treated differently by the law. And generally adults have more responsibility to act "reasonable" than a child.

 

I sincerely hope one day your kid is not chased by a man with a gun, I really do, because I would hate for you to have to tell your child how that man had every right to run after him, because well, he was just a kid walking on the street, and that gives someone the right to chase them with a gun.

 

its a joke.

 

Again, please show me evidence that the gun was known prior to its use. If Zimmerman is really running after Martin with a gun in the air, then I'd agree with you.

 

[MexSoxFan#1]

Especially if you're not white!

I ain't running from you either

[StrangeSox]

By all accounts, it sounds as if the prosecution is putting on a pretty terrible case.

[pettie4sox]

By a racist media that magnifies what minorities do. Whites also commit robberies.

 

Yes.

[Balta1701]

Again, please show me evidence that the gun was known prior to its use. If Zimmerman is really running after Martin with a gun in the air, then I'd agree with you.

If you think this statement is fair game...then show me some evidence that it wasn't?