Trayvon Martin

[Jenksismyhero]

You do come off as a "gun nut" though

 

No offense

 

And i'm not even that much of a gun nut! I agree with more restrictions and all that. I just think from the get go this case was immediately pegged as an "OMG A WHITE (hispanic) PERSON KILLED A LITTLE BLACK BOY EATING SKITTLES. AMERICA, TREYVON COULD HAVE BEEN MY SON."

 

It's incredibly sad and incredibly unfortunate, but there's another side to the story. IMO there's enough evidence to suggest that everything Zimmerman did was maybe not smart, but not totally and completely unreasonable given the circumstances. He was wrong to do what he did, but I don't know that he should get the however many multiple year sentence for 2nd degree murder because of it.

[Soxbadger]

You can't say Zimmerman was pointing his gun at Martin when you have no evidence to support that. If you're making the claim that Zimmerman had his gun out and created a fear in Martin of imminent death (giving a basis for him to use his own gun if he had one, which is what Balta originally claimed), it's your burden to prove it. I don't have to prove that he DIDN'T have the gun out.

 

And yes, it absolutely is Zimmerman's burden to prove his actions were in self defense.

 

Im not sure where you are going with this. No part of the charge of murder, murder 2, manslaughter required Martin to know that there was or was not a gun.

 

Burden of proof is only about the actual charge. You can speculate based on factual evidence. I cant prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin knew, but I can definitely in closing argue that:

 

1) Zimmerman acknowledged that Martin looked at him

2) After staring at Zimmerman, Martin ran.

3) That Zimmerman ran after Martin

4) That Zimmerman had a gun

5) That Martin ran because he thought his life was in danger

 

I dont need to prove that. Its up to Zimmerman to prove that his actions were self defense, and I dont believe that Zimmerman can testify that when he ran after Martin, Zimmerman was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

This is false.

 

He had a legitimate fear because an unknown man followed him for 20 minutes then came after him on foot.

 

That's not a reason to take a shot by any reasonable standard, but in the world where "I'm glad that we get more and more examples of people having guns. Maybe people will stop f***ing with each other if they know there's a serious consequence waiting for them", you probably ought to assume the guy coming after you is armed and just take the shot.

 

If you feel your life is in imminent danger, then go for it. Like Zimmerman, a jury of your peers will decide.

[Soxbadger]

And i'm not even that much of a gun nut! I agree with more restrictions and all that. I just think from the get go this case was immediately pegged as an "OMG A WHITE (hispanic) PERSON KILLED A LITTLE BLACK BOY EATING SKITTLES. AMERICA, TREYVON COULD HAVE BEEN MY SON."

 

It's incredibly sad and incredibly unfortunate, but there's another side to the story. IMO there's enough evidence to suggest that everything Zimmerman did was maybe not smart, but not totally and completely unreasonable given the circumstances. He was wrong to do what he did, but I don't know that he should get the however many multiple year sentence for 2nd degree murder because of it.

 

 

No this case was pegged in my mind as:

 

"PERSON KILLED UNARMED BOY , HE COULD HAVE BEEN ANYONES SON"

 

And to this day I still do not understand how people who are parents can accept what Zimmerman did. Not one parent would be okay with some random 28 year old man killing their unarmed child and saying:

 

"Well it was late he was wearing a hoodie, what else am I supposed to do but follow and shoot him?"

 

 

(edit)

 

Its only the people who want to defend Zimmerman who generally want to make it a race issue. I already know that if it was a white suburban kid who had a backpack full of AP books how half of these peoples opinions would dramatically change.

 

Hyporcites for the win.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

If you feel your life is in imminent danger, then go for it. Like Zimmerman, a jury of your peers will decide.

And once again, thank you for proving my point of why random people carrying guns on the street is a terrible idea.

[Jenksismyhero]

Im not sure where you are going with this. No part of the charge of murder, murder 2, manslaughter required Martin to know that there was or was not a gun.

 

Burden of proof is only about the actual charge. You can speculate based on factual evidence. I cant prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin knew, but I can definitely in closing argue that:

 

1) Zimmerman acknowledged that Martin looked at him

2) After staring at Zimmerman, Martin ran.

3) That Zimmerman ran after Martin

4) That Zimmerman had a gun

5) That Martin ran because he thought his life was in danger

 

I dont need to prove that. Its up to Zimmerman to prove that his actions were self defense, and I dont believe that Zimmerman can testify that when he ran after Martin, Zimmerman was unaware that Zimmerman had a gun.

 

And that's different than your earlier claim that Martin ran because he knew Zimmerman had a gun BEFORE the confrontation.

[Soxbadger]

And that's different than your earlier claim that Martin ran because he knew Zimmerman had a gun BEFORE the confrontation.

 

Im pretty sure Ive consistently said that no one has the facts because Martin is dead and the best way to prevent yourself from going to jail is to kill witness.

[zenryan]

(edit)

 

Its only the people who want to defend Zimmerman who generally want to make it a race issue. I already know that if it was a white suburban kid who had a backpack full of AP books how half of these peoples opinions would dramatically change.

 

Hyporcites for the win.

 

 

 

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson says hi...

[Jenksismyhero]

No this case was pegged in my mind as:

 

"PERSON KILLED UNARMED BOY , HE COULD HAVE BEEN ANYONES SON"

 

And to this day I still do not understand how people who are parents can accept what Zimmerman did. Not one parent would be okay with some random 28 year old man killing their unarmed child and saying:

 

"Well it was late he was wearing a hoodie, what else am I supposed to do but follow and shoot him?"

 

 

(edit)

 

Its only the people who want to defend Zimmerman who generally want to make it a race issue. I already know that if it was a white suburban kid who had a backpack full of AP books how half of these peoples opinions would dramatically change.

 

Hyporcites for the win.

 

That's bulls***. Race was made an issue from the get go.

[Jenksismyhero]

Im pretty sure Ive consistently said that no one has the facts because Martin is dead and the best way to prevent yourself from going to jail is to kill witness.

 

And that's correct, and i've consistently added that you can't just make up facts and present them as evidence when you have no evidence to support those facts. You can't tell the jury Martin ran because he saw Zimmerman with a gun. Facts not in evidence. Sustained.

[Soxbadger]

Race was made an issue about why the Florida police did not charge Zimmerman in the first place.

 

Race in the trial is being used by non-minorities to suggest that Zimmerman was in the right because black people had been committing crimes.

[Soxbadger]

And that's correct, and i've consistently added that you can't just make up facts and present them as evidence when you have no evidence to support those facts. You can't tell the jury Martin ran because he saw Zimmerman with a gun. Facts not in evidence. Sustained.

 

Where did I ever say I would say that? You can say Zimmerman had a gun and you can say Martin ran.

 

Posting on this board isnt a trial and Im pretty sure the rules of evidence dont apply to the arguments Im making on this board.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Where did I ever say I would say that? You can say Zimmerman had a gun and you can say Martin ran.

 

Posting on this board isnt a trial and Im pretty sure the rules of evidence dont apply to the arguments Im making on this board.

 

Oh they do.

[illinilaw08]

He could have run after him and still maintained 20-25 feet of distance. That's not escalating anything, that's just keeping your eye on someone you think is suspicious.

 

I totally agree this should have all been avoided and that it's a sad story. But that doesn't equate to a guy going to jail for a long time over a mistake of trying to play cop a little too much.

 

Come on now Jenks. If I'm out walking my dog and someone starts following me, stopping when I stop, speeding up when I speed up, I'm absolutely going to feel threatened by that situation. If I'm going for a run and somebody is following me in their car, turning when I turn, stopping if I stop, I'm absolutely going to feel threatened by that situation. The mere act of following ABSOLUTELY escalates the situation.

 

This doesn't equate to a guy going to jail for trying to play cop to much. If convicted, it's a guy going to jail for taking an innocent 17 year old's life.

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

I keep reading here that Martin was tailed for 20+ minutes. I recall seeing a map of the community, it wasn't that damn big. 20 minutes he could have been home two times over.

 

Also, if I recall the full conversation, when Zimmerman called the cops, he never mentioned the kid might be black until he was prompted by the dispatcher for a description.

[StrangeSox]

Also, if I recall the full conversation, when Zimmerman called the cops, he never mentioned the kid might be black until he was prompted by the dispatcher for a description.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326...-zimmerman.html

 

It was the first thing the dispatcher asked him. Why is it supposed to matter if he mentioned it in his first two sentences or his third? And of course a dispatcher would ask for a description if you're calling in a 'suspicious' person.

[EvilMonkey]

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326...-zimmerman.html

 

It was the first thing the dispatcher asked him. Why is it supposed to matter if he mentioned it in his first two sentences or his third? And of course a dispatcher would ask for a description if you're calling in a 'suspicious' person.

Well, if he started his call 'there's some guilty looking black kid walking down the street...', it would be worse than 'there is a suspicious kid walking down the street'. Race shouldn't matter in most of your arguments you have used throughout here. The kid was suspicious regardless of his color. Unrecognized, looking lost, recent break ins, dark, raining, all enough to warrant a closer look.

[StrangeSox]

Well, if he started his call 'there's some guilty looking black kid walking down the street...', it would be worse than 'there is a suspicious kid walking down the street'. Race shouldn't matter in most of your arguments you have used throughout here. The kid was suspicious regardless of his color. Unrecognized, looking lost, recent break ins, dark, raining, all enough to warrant a closer look.

 

lol, sure, Zimmerman would have called any random person he didn't immediately recognize in as a 'suspicious' person.

 

He was targeted because he was black. Somebody walking on the sidewalk at 8PM in light rain doesn't warrant "a closer look" unless that person happens to be black.

[mr_genius]

By a racist media that magnifies what minorities do.

 

If anything they do the opposite now-a-days.

Edited June 28, 2013 by mr_genius

[EvilMonkey]

lol, sure, Zimmerman would have called any random person he didn't immediately recognize in as a 'suspicious' person.

 

He was targeted because he was black. Somebody walking on the sidewalk at 8PM in light rain doesn't warrant "a closer look" unless that person happens to be black.

If he is UNKNOWN, then yes, why not? I have an empty house across the street from me. When I see kids walking by checking it out, I get suspicious of them. It has been broken into before. And I did call the cops on one group and 3 of them got busted while inside the garage. They were 2 white guys and a hispanic, btw.

[Soxbadger]

Alpha,

 

 

What do you think Zimmerman meant by this statement:

 

"Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away"

 

Kids in general?

 

And hilariously Zimmerman refers to Martin as a "kid" in his phone call. Yet its unfair to label Martin as a kid?

 

 

And the kid wasnt suspicious at all. Wearing a hoodie, walking at night around where you live, those are not suspicious actions.

[EvilMonkey]

Alpha,

 

 

What do you think Zimmerman meant by this statement:

 

"Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away"

 

Kids in general?

 

And hilariously Zimmerman refers to Martin as a "kid" in his phone call. Yet its unfair to label Martin as a kid?

 

 

And the kid wasnt suspicious at all. Wearing a hoodie, walking at night around where you live, those are not suspicious actions.

He was wandering around as if lost or looking for something. Not suspicious at ALL for someone who lived there.

 

And if you are assuming that by assholes he meant blacks, then just who is it that is obsessed with race? Again, if he had said 'asshole backs kids', or stronger language, then you have something different. Assholes are assholes, regardless of color, sex, religion or sexual orientation.

[StrangeSox]

If he is UNKNOWN, then yes, why not? I have an empty house across the street from me. When I see kids walking by checking it out, I get suspicious of them. It has been broken into before. And I did call the cops on one group and 3 of them got busted while inside the garage. They were 2 white guys and a hispanic, btw.

 

You call the cops on every single individual you don't recognize in your neighborhood who's walking on the sidewalk at 8PM? You think that the simple act of being outside and not being known by you warrants being harassed by the police?

[Balta1701]

You call the cops on every single individual you don't recognize in your neighborhood who's walking on the sidewalk at 8PM? You think that the simple act of being outside and not being known by you warrants being harassed by the police?

He also grabs his gun and chases them. That's the only way people will learn.

[StrangeSox]

He was wandering around as if lost or looking for something. Not suspicious at ALL for someone who lived there.

 

So instead of asking if he could help the guy, he calls the police. This doesn't happen if he's not a young black male.