Trayvon Martin

[Soxbadger]

According to Florida Code of Criminal Procedure:

 

RULE 3.490. DETERMINATION OF DEGREE OF OFFENSE

If the indictment or information charges an offense divided into degrees,

the jury may find the defendant guilty of the offense charged or any lesser

degree supported by the evidence. The judge shall not instruct on any degree as

to which there is no evidence.

 

So you can go downstream but not upstream.

 

Y2hh it was actually Jenks who found it, based on that I think its always okay to convict of a lesser offense, even if its not explicitly charged.

 

[Brian]

It's still a pretty f***ed up society where it's okay to arm yourself and chase after an innocent teen, wind up getting into an altercation and shooting them to death and you can walk away a free man.

 

That's kinda how I feel. The 911 calls show he clearly stalked him when the operator said not to and approached the kid. Even if Trayvon threw the first punch or whatever, that could've been self defense, but we'll never know.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's still a pretty f***ed up society where it's okay to arm yourself and chase after an innocent teen, wind up getting into an altercation and shooting them to death and you can walk away a free man.

 

I get that you've already decided this is true, but the evidence during the trial is that he flat out attacked Zimmerman. You can argue whether that was warranted based on being chased (I still argue no, especially given his reaction to his friend on the phone), but it's not as simple as "racist guy chases after black teen, loses a fight and is allowed to kill in self defense."

 

 

[Soxbadger]

IMO he walks. The prosecution had a weak case that was made worse by the witnesses. They tried to make race a thing and it didn't really stick. And they never could paint the picture that Zimmerman was a vigilante. The evidence is overwhelming that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and clearly had the upper hand in the fight. I think that should be enough for the self-defense argument. And I think the prosecution knows this since they asked for the weak third degree murder charge based on child abuse.

 

This case is going to be decided by what juror has the strongest will.

 

If Im a juror in that case, I would be hammering away that turning a fist fight into a gun fight that kills someone deserves some punishment. Zimmerman/Martin perhaps both created a dangerous situation, 1 of them is dead, the other deserves something.

 

Had they both just beaten the s*** out of each other, we never hear about this. But when you bring a gun to a fist fight, I think you need to use much more restraint and I would want to make that message clear.

 

You will go to jail if you shoot an unarmed teenager over a fist fight.

 

[StrangeSox]

I get that you've already decided this is true, but the evidence during the trial is that he flat out attacked Zimmerman. You can argue whether that was warranted based on being chased (I still argue no, especially given his reaction to his friend on the phone), but it's not as simple as "racist guy chases after black teen, loses a fight and is allowed to kill in self defense."

I used "gets into an altercation" neutrally there as we don't know who started it. Whether Trayvon stopped and decided to stand his ground against this creep who was following him or whether Zimmerman caught up to him and started the altercation is immaterial to my claim that Zimmerman's course of actions should not be legal.

 

What is to stop me from arming myself, stalking people around until I provoke a physical response and then shooting them in "self defense?"

[StrangeSox]

the evidence during the trial is that he flat out attacked Zimmerman.

 

btw I haven't been following the actual trial very closely, what is the concrete evidence that Martin initiated the physical confrontation?

 

[Jenksismyhero]

This case is going to be decided by what juror has the strongest will.

 

If Im a juror in that case, I would be hammering away that turning a fist fight into a gun fight that kills someone deserves some punishment. Zimmerman/Martin perhaps both created a dangerous situation, 1 of them is dead, the other deserves something.

 

Had they both just beaten the s*** out of each other, we never hear about this. But when you bring a gun to a fist fight, I think you need to use much more restraint and I would want to make that message clear.

 

You will go to jail if you shoot an unarmed teenager over a fist fight.

 

Mr. Juror, your job is to evaluate the facts based on the law, not what you believe the law should be.

 

The Judge gets to do the sentencing right? If i'm a juror and I wanted Zimmerman to serve a little time, i'd be concerned that my option of finding him guilty of manslaughter still carries a possibility of 30 years for this.

[Jenksismyhero]

I used "gets into an altercation" neutrally there as we don't know who started it. Whether Trayvon stopped and decided to stand his ground against this creep who was following him or whether Zimmerman caught up to him and started the altercation is immaterial to my claim that Zimmerman's course of actions should not be legal.

 

What is to stop me from arming myself, stalking people around until I provoke a physical response and then shooting them in "self defense?"

 

The context matters there though, you have to still prove that you acted in self-defense. You can't initiate an altercation and still argue self-defense.

[iamshack]

This case is going to be decided by what juror has the strongest will.

 

If Im a juror in that case, I would be hammering away that turning a fist fight into a gun fight that kills someone deserves some punishment. Zimmerman/Martin perhaps both created a dangerous situation, 1 of them is dead, the other deserves something.

 

Had they both just beaten the s*** out of each other, we never hear about this. But when you bring a gun to a fist fight, I think you need to use much more restraint and I would want to make that message clear.

 

You will go to jail if you shoot an unarmed teenager over a fist fight.

I agree....I disagree with Jenks that Zimmerman's actions didn't rise to the level of a genuine and imminent threat to Martin.

 

I don't think you should be allowed to exhibit all kinds of threatening behavior, meanwhile you're carrying a gun, and then when your behavior puts your own life in peril, you just fire off your trump card and get to walk off into the sunset unscathed. That seems like bs to me.

 

Zimmerman exhibited threatening behavior (and indeed was carrying a gun). I can't wrap my mind around the fact that someone stalking me in a vehicle and on foot can then shoot me dead when I panic and gain the upper hand in the ensuing altercation.

 

Is Martin dead here because he was younger and a better fighter than Zimmerman? Should he be faulted (and now dead) for that?

 

Self-defense usually revolves around who started the altercation and whether the person in peril had a realistic alternative course of action (rather than using deadly force). I'm not sure, given our current society and the technology and weaponry available to basically any citizen, that we can say that he started this altercation.

Edited July 12, 2013 by iamshack

[Soxbadger]

Mr. Juror, your job is to evaluate the facts based on the law, not what you believe the law should be.

 

The Judge gets to do the sentencing right? If i'm a juror and I wanted Zimmerman to serve a little time, i'd be concerned that my option of finding him guilty of manslaughter still carries a possibility of 30 years for this.

 

I am applying the law. I believe that you cant "self defend" if you created the situation by following someone.

 

The 911 operator clearly told him not to follow. At that point he no longer can claim self defense.

 

Thats called applying the law, so you really dont need to try and act condescending, it wont get you anywhere.

[StrangeSox]

my favorite thing I've seen so far was the testimony from Zimmerman's martial arts/boxing trainer:

 

3:39 p.m. ET: The judge is back on the bench and the attorneys are at a sidebar.

 

3:20 p.m. ET: The judge has recessed court for 15 minutes.

 

3:19 p.m. ET: When Zimmerman was last at the gym, Pollack says: "He had lost quite a bit of weight so he was in physically better shape but he still had a long way to go. He wasn’t shredded and ripped like a competitive fighter." He agrees with O'Mara that he would still consider Zimmerman to be "soft" at this point. This witness has been excused.

 

3:18 p.m. ET: Pollack says Zimmerman was still working on his jab.

 

"He had not gotten proficient, truly proficient, with any of it," said Pollack. "He was a hard worker but he was no an accomplished athlete in any shape or form."

 

3:17 p.m. ET: Prosecutor Mantei has finished his cross-examination of Pollack. Defense attorney O'Mara is now asking more questions.

 

3:15 p.m. ET: Pollack says Zimmerman did several months of grappling classes then switched to boxing classes when his school schedule changed. He would have done a max of six hours per week of classes.

 

3:13 p.m. ET: Zimmerman would have learned foot work first, then how to hold his body position, then he would learn a jab, a straight right hand, then a hook and then combinations.

 

3:11 p.m. ET: Pollack says you can't arm-lock somebody from the ground position. "You have to be extremely skilled," said Pollack and agreed that Zimmerman didn't have the skills for this maneuver.

 

3:10 p.m. ET: "A one-minute round can seem like eternity if you’re not in condition for it," said Pollack.

 

3:09 p.m. ET: Pollack says he wouldn't teach a beginner about the first blow strategy because they'd need the foundation first. He also says if you can't execute it well, it could leave you open to quick counter attack.

 

3:07 p.m. ET: Zimmerman was 250-260 pounds when he joined the gym and lost between 50-80 pounds, according to Pollack.

 

3:06 p.m. ET: Pollack says he doesn't know if Zimmerman joined another gym or was working out at home while taking a hiatus from his gym.

 

3:04 p.m. ET: Pollack says he would describe Zimmerman as "non-athletic."

 

"He was -- and I don’t really like to use this terminology – soft, just physically soft. He was an overweight, large man, and a very pleasant, nice man. But physically soft," said Pollack. O'Mara has completed his direct examination.

 

3:01 p.m. ET: Pollack saw Zimmerman a few days after the shooting.

 

"He had black eyes, his nose was scraped up, he had some bandages on his head… he looked emotionally traumatized," said Pollack. "He had the look of a human being who had been through an extremely traumatic experience and was traumatized from it."

 

2:58 p.m. ET: Zimmerman was obese when he first came to the gym, according to Pollack. Both the dietary changes and exercise program helped Zimmerman get in better shape. Pollack wouldn't teach Zimmerman how to kick because "he didn't have a handle on punching."

 

2:57 p.m. ET: On a scale of 1 to 10 in regards to boxing proficiency, Pollack gives Zimmerman a 0.5 when he first started.

 

Pollack says Zimmerman never got in the ring -- "He wasn't skilled enough for that."

 

After training, Pollack says of Zimmerman: "He's still learning how to punch, he didn't really know how to effectively punch."

 

"Did he ever get to the point where he could box somebody else?" asked defense attorney O'Mara.

 

"Absolutely not," said Pollack.

 

2:53 p.m. ET: Pollack also gives Zimmerman "about a 1" on a scale of 10 when it comes to his overall athleticism.

 

2:52 p.m. ET: Pollack said that after a year of training, he would give Zimmerman a 1 or 1.5 on a scale of 10

 

"It's not that he made such little progress, it's a tremendous amount of work," said Pollack.

 

2:51 p.m. ET: Pollack gives Zimmerman a 0.5 on a scale of 10 before his training started. Pollack says Zimmerman trained for about a year, except for a few months of hiatus. He took classes on grappling, boxing and would occasionally come in on his own.

 

2:48 p.m. ET: Zimmerman wanted to box, but the classes didn't fit his schedule, so Pollack had him start grappling. Zimmerman would have learned chocks, arm locks, leg locks -- "Basically make the person say, 'Uncle,'" said Pollack. Training sessions are normally two hours long and Zimmerman would have taken classes 2-3 times each week.

 

Dude trained for about a year, losing 50-80 pounds in the process and was still completely inept in a fight. No wonder he felt he had to carry a deadly weapon.

[StrangeSox]

The context matters there though, you have to still prove that you acted in self-defense. You can't initiate an altercation and still argue self-defense.

 

I didn't say I'd initiate physical contact. I'm just going to follow people around for blocks until one of them physically confronts me first, then I will shoot them in self-defense. At best, this is what Zimmerman did.

[Jenksismyhero]

btw I haven't been following the actual trial very closely, what is the concrete evidence that Martin initiated the physical confrontation?

 

Zimmerman's initial statements to the cops, and the cops testimony that he believed Zimmerman (which I get is self-serving, but you have testimony backing up the credibility of that the night of the shooting). I believe one of the witnesses also testified that he heard them shouting (but didn't see the start) and then when they looked seconds afterwards they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. It wouldn't make sense that Zimmerman punched Martin and then immediately got thrown to the ground given their respective sizes.

 

I mean all this is context based. I get that. And it's Zimmerman's burden to show that he didn't initiate the fight. I think through the prosecution's witnesses he was able to paint a picture of acting reasonably and justifiable before the fight, even if it was stupid. There was a reason for it. He wasn't just walking around hoping to pick a fight with someone in order to shoot them.

[StrangeSox]

I agree....I disagree with Jenks that Zimmerman's actions didn't rise to the level of a genuine and imminent threat to Martin.

 

I don't think you should be allowed to exhibit all kinds of threatening behavior, meanwhile you're carrying a gun, and then when your behavior puts your own life in peril, you just fire off your trump card and get to walk off into the sunset unscathed. That seems like bs to me.

 

Zimmerman exhibited threatening behavior (and indeed was carrying a gun). I can't wrap my mind around the fact that someone stalking me in a vehicle and on foot can then shoot me dead when I panic and gain the upper hand in the ensuing altercation.

 

Is Martin dead here because he was younger and a better fighter than Zimmerman? Should he be faulted (and now dead) for that?

 

Self-defense usually revolves around who started the altercation and whether the person in peril had a realistic alternative course of action (rather than using deadly force). I'm not sure, given our current society and the technology and weaponry available to basically any citizen, that we can say that he started this altercation.

 

Martin was a Good Guy who should have been carrying a gun.

[iamshack]

Zimmerman's initial statements to the cops, and the cops testimony that he believed Zimmerman (which I get is self-serving, but you have testimony backing up the credibility of that the night of the shooting). I believe one of the witnesses also testified that he heard them shouting (but didn't see the start) and then when they looked seconds afterwards they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. It wouldn't make sense that Zimmerman punched Martin and then immediately got thrown to the ground given their respective sizes.

 

I mean all this is context based. I get that. And it's Zimmerman's burden to show that he didn't initiate the fight. I think through the prosecution's witnesses he was able to paint a picture of acting reasonably and justifiable before the fight, even if it was stupid. There was a reason for it. He wasn't just walking around hoping to pick a fight with someone in order to shoot them.

I'd argue he was looking to do something of the sort.

 

If he wasn't, what was he doing?

[StrangeSox]

Zimmerman's initial statements to the cops, and the cops testimony that he believed Zimmerman (which I get is self-serving, but you have testimony backing up the credibility of that the night of the shooting). I believe one of the witnesses also testified that he heard them shouting (but didn't see the start) and then when they looked seconds afterwards they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. It wouldn't make sense that Zimmerman punched Martin and then immediately got thrown to the ground given their respective sizes.

 

I mean all this is context based. I get that. And it's Zimmerman's burden to show that he didn't initiate the fight. I think through the prosecution's witnesses he was able to paint a picture of acting reasonably and justifiable before the fight, even if it was stupid. There was a reason for it. He wasn't just walking around hoping to pick a fight with someone in order to shoot them.

 

Ok, so basically just Zimmerman's own statements about what happened, I wasn't sure if there was something incontrovertibly showing that Martin attacked him unprovoked.

 

I disagree that his actions before the fight were reasonable and justifiable. Why should someone be able to stalk someone on foot while carrying a deadly weapon and, if they decide to physically confront this strange person following them around, shoot them in self-defense and walk away a free man?

[Jenksismyhero]

I agree....I disagree with Jenks that Zimmerman's actions didn't rise to the level of a genuine and imminent threat to Martin.

 

I don't think you should be allowed to exhibit all kinds of threatening behavior, meanwhile you're carrying a gun, and then when your behavior puts your own life in peril, you just fire off your trump card and get to walk off into the sunset unscathed. That seems like bs to me.

 

Zimmerman exhibited threatening behavior (and indeed was carrying a gun). I can't wrap my mind around the fact that someone stalking me in a vehicle and on foot can then shoot me dead when I panic and gain the upper hand in the ensuing altercation.

 

Is Martin dead here because he was younger and a better fighter than Zimmerman? Should he be faulted (and now dead) for that?

 

Self-defense usually revolves around who started the altercation and whether the person in peril had a realistic alternative course of action (rather than using deadly force). I'm not sure, given our current society and the technology and weaponry available to basically any citizen, that we can say that he started this altercation.

 

But you're ignoring the testimony of the friend who gave you the best indication of whether Martin was really scared or not. He was calm. He was collected. He was actually angry or annoyed more than fearful.

 

And again, you're putting facts not in evidence by saying "gain the upperhand." The evidence at the trial, even if self-serving, is that he was flat out attacked. It wasn't they screamed at each other for 5 minutes and then started to wrestle. It was Zimmerman being dumb and following the kid and then getting attacked out of the bushes. That's not starting a fight and losing it and then killing someone in supposed self defense.

[mr_genius]

"Did he ever get to the point where he could box somebody else?" asked defense attorney O'Mara.

 

"Absolutely not," said Pollack

 

lol

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I'd argue he was looking to do something of the sort.

 

If he wasn't, what was he doing?

 

Keeping an eye on Martin until the cops showed up? I believe he told the cops the only reason he got out of his car was Zimmerman went around a corner and he lost sight of him. When he went after him on foot he was attacked.

[Soxbadger]

Jenks,

 

Once again, I do not believe following innocent people around with guns and acting in aggressive fashion is "reasonable".

 

If I was walking home and some random guy started following me in a car and then on foot, I cant defend myself?

 

Its funny, you keep acting like Zimmerman is the victim because he got beat up. I say, dont act like a tough guy unless you are a tough guy. If someone follows me and Im scared, I think I should have the right to try and defend myself with my fists.

 

I do not believe that guy then should have the right to shoot me, because hes the dick who started it in the first place.

 

Here is a fact that no one can deny:

 

But for Zimmerman, no one dies that night.

 

Martin wasnt going to hurt anyone, he wasnt trying to hurt anyone, he was walking down the goddamn street going home.

 

But for Zimmerman, none of this happens.

 

You want to applaud this type of behavior that is your call, but the law absolutely favors my argument and Zimmerman should be thanking whatever god he believes in that Martin wasnt me, because hed likely be facing murder 1.

 

-in the world where Zimmerman kills the white suburban upper middle class teenager-

 

It was premeditated, Zimmerman was told by the police to stop following the nice white suburban boy through the gated community that the teenager was visiting, but Zimmerman would not listen. He followed the white teenager as the teenager tried to escape to his house. Out of fear the teen tried to attack Zimmerman so he could run away, but Zimmerman, who had previously been arrested for assault in another case, shot the teenager in the chest killing him instantly.

 

Justice for all.

[Jenksismyhero]

Ok, so basically just Zimmerman's own statements about what happened, I wasn't sure if there was something incontrovertibly showing that Martin attacked him unprovoked.

 

I disagree that his actions before the fight were reasonable and justifiable. Why should someone be able to stalk someone on foot while carrying a deadly weapon and, if they decide to physically confront this strange person following them around, shoot them in self-defense and walk away a free man?

 

I don't think there is any evidence of an actual confrontation. Zimmerman's story is he went after him and then got attacked.

[StrangeSox]

Keeping an eye on Martin until the cops showed up? I believe he told the cops the only reason he got out of his car was Zimmerman went around a corner and he lost sight of him. When he went after him on foot he was attacked.

 

He told them multiple reasons. Zimmerman's story isn't entirely consistent and includes some ridiculous bulls***, like Trayvon supposedly shouting "You got me!" after being shot in the chest.

[mr_genius]

Once again, I do not believe following innocent people around with guns and acting in aggressive fashion is "reasonable".

 

agreed. it isn't a reasonable thing to do. especially if he was following as closely as i believe he was.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks,

 

Once again, I do not believe following innocent people around with guns and acting in aggressive fashion is "reasonable".

 

If I was walking home and some random guy started following me in a car and then on foot, I cant defend myself?

 

Its funny, you keep acting like Zimmerman is the victim because he got beat up. I say, dont act like a tough guy unless you are a tough guy. If someone follows me and Im scared, I think I should have the right to try and defend myself with my fists.

 

I do not believe that guy then should have the right to shoot me, because hes the dick who started it in the first place.

 

Here is a fact that no one can deny:

 

But for Zimmerman, no one dies that night.

 

Martin wasnt going to hurt anyone, he wasnt trying to hurt anyone, he was walking down the goddamn street going home.

 

But for Zimmerman, none of this happens.

 

You want to applaud this type of behavior that is your call, but the law absolutely favors my argument and Zimmerman should be thanking whatever god he believes in that Martin wasnt me, because hed likely be facing murder 1.

 

-in the world where Zimmerman kills the white suburban upper middle class teenager-

 

It was premeditated, Zimmerman was told by the police to stop following the nice white suburban boy through the gated community that the teenager was visiting, but Zimmerman would not listen. He followed the white teenager as the teenager tried to escape to his house. Out of fear the teen tried to attack Zimmerman so he could run away, but Zimmerman, who had previously been arrested for assault in another case, shot the teenager in the chest killing him instantly.

 

Justice for all.

 

lol, k. I never want you as a juror. Jesus.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I don't think there is any evidence of an actual confrontation. Zimmerman's story is he went after him and then got attacked.

Best-case scenario for Zimmerman, he stalked this innocent teenager around the neighborhood while carrying a deadly weapon and then Martin physically confronted him, leading to a fight and then to Zimmerman shooting Martin to death.

 

Look at your own phrasing, "he went after him" while carrying a loaded gun. Why shouldn't that immediately disqualify any claims of self-defense?