zenryan Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 01:16 PM) Right, so Martin should have thought twice about ambushing a guy. He might have a gun. And he might shoot you if you start bashing his head into a curb. Havent you learned yet that only Zimmerman is responsible for his actions. God forbid anyone holds Trayvon responsible for his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenryan Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 03:07 PM) That to me is the most WTF thing about all this...Zim is so b****made he can't get a teen who weighs less than him, off of him without killing him? Really? This is a guy who wanted to be a cop and took MAA lessons and he's now the weakest man alive...please. You obviously have no clue on what youre talking about here. It isnt that easy to get someone off of you from that position if youre getting punched in the face when you have no idea how to defend yourself. And he wasnt taking MMA lessons. He was doing basically cardio workouts at a MMA gym. The gym owner even said he didnt do anything more than punch a heavy bag. He didnt do any MMA type workouts/grappling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (zenryan @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 07:41 PM) Havent you learned yet that only Zimmerman is responsible for his actions. God forbid anyone holds Trayvon responsible for his... I think many wish we had the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (zenryan @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:41 PM) Havent you learned yet that only Zimmerman is responsible for his actions. God forbid anyone holds Trayvon responsible for his... Im pretty sure that Martin already has paid the greatest consequence for his action. The idea here is that BOTH should have to take some responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexSoxFan#1 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (zenryan @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:47 PM) You obviously have no clue on what youre talking about here. It isnt that easy to get someone off of you from that position if youre getting punched in the face when you have no idea how to defend yourself. And he wasnt taking MMA lessons. He was doing basically cardio workouts at a MMA gym. The gym owner even said he didnt do anything more than punch a heavy bag. He didnt do any MMA type workouts/grappling. Have you ever gotten in a fight? I've fought bigger guys than me and never had to resort to killing someone. You don't think it entirely possible that Zim is exaggerating just what a killing machine that teenager was? I'm of the opinion that he used unneccesary force, his injuries weren't that serious, so sue me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 01:25 PM) iamshack, there are municipal ordinances in the city for such things. I imagine Florida, or the city or county, have something similar. Municipal ordinances for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 01:54 PM) Disobeying a police officer. Yes, and so is littering and loitering. When you have charges of this magnitude, it doesn't really matter for the point that is being made...and I am not sure you are really arguing that it does, just pointing out that Zimmerman ignoring the advice of the 911 operator means nothing as far as being in violation of any laws. I guess what I (and some others) was trying to point out is that it does show that a trained professional, whose duties include advising civilians how to behave in the face of an extreme situation, advised Zimmerman not to continue following Martin. Yes, Zimmerman is under no legal obligation to obey the 911 operator (for liability reasons which the police generally have received special treatment for), however it does establish that Zimmerman's course of conduct may have been ill-thought out, unreasonable, and/or even reckless. While they apparently did not rise to the level of being unlawful (I suspect one could make a case for "stalking"), they certainly contributed to the fact that one person is now dead and Zimmerman himself is on trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I thought we liked concealed carry because it defends us from death, yes? When evil people try to kill us (particularly "criminals with guns,") we are allowed to use our concealed weapons to defend ourselves, even if it necessitates deadly force. This sounds great. I think most people in the Zimmerman camp are thinking about the possibility of getting their ass kicked, wondering if a blow the head will kill them, and feeling happy that their gun can diffuse things very quickly. But what I can't help but think about is...does this confrontation ever occur if George Zimmerman isn't armed? Do we feel emboldened to confront people that we believe to be dangerous if we don't feel that we have an easy means to kill them? I don't carry guns with me when I'm out and about and I know that I don't normally feel compelled to prolong my time near people I think could be dangerous. I think it is fair to say that I'm much more likely to listen to the side of me that is annoyed with local crime when I have a gun than the side of me that fears criminals; this is not to say that sometimes fear won't still override other emotional/logical considerations, of course. It's messy. This is why I'm highly skeptical of people that believe that concealed carry and maybe gun ownership in general is an unequivocal good. I don't mean to paint the picture that concealed carry/gun ownership are unequivocally BAD, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Another thing I think about: did Zimmerman have an opportunity to try to inflict NON-deadly force? I know this may not pertain legally, but it still makes me wonder. The prosecution has shown that the deadly shot was a picture perfect one for killing a human being - self-defense or not, Zimmerman meant for Martin to die when he fired the gun at his heart. Is it reasonable to expect someone to try to defend themselves with a gun without shooting to kill? I'm not sure. You certainly don't want to miss or hit the person harming you in such a way that it doesn't stop them from harming you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 05:24 PM) Another thing I think about: did Zimmerman have an opportunity to try to inflict NON-deadly force? I know this may not pertain legally, but it still makes me wonder. The prosecution has shown that the deadly shot was a picture perfect one for killing a human being - self-defense or not, Zimmerman meant for Martin to die when he fired the gun at his heart. Is it reasonable to expect someone to try to defend themselves with a gun without shooting to kill? I'm not sure. You certainly don't want to miss or hit the person harming you in such a way that it doesn't stop them from harming you. If Zimmerman's statements are to be believed, he had plenty of time to do so but was unable to do so because he wasn't able to overpower the kid. His statements to the police was that his head was struck on the ground >20 times before he pulled the gun. Personally I don't believe that, but if that was the case he would have had time to try to say something or fight back, but was unable to because of the kid's fighting prowess. If I had to guess, I'd say the kid surprised him, hit him, knocked him down, maybe even hit his head forcibly on the ground once or twice, and then Zimmerman pulled the gun and fired. There might have been some rolling around to explain the other witnesses "sights" of different guys on top, but it's hard to call any of those statements credible. He had the injuries of a guy who got hit, went down, hit his head on teh ground in the fall, and then took the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:34 PM) Fair enough, I think we're generally in agreement. That does not fit the ILCS definition of stalking either, though. Well, this did not occur in Illinois. You could certainly argue it under the Florida statute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:55 PM) Most laws are very similar, no idea how theirs reads. Just putting it out there. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....s/0784.048.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:05 PM) Because he did and it's documented in the 911 call. And he caught him? in a chase? you guys are really soft in here if you believe this tub of goo caught a 17 yr kid. Please someone answer WHy didn't Martin just go home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) And he caught him? in a chase? you guys are really soft in here if you believe this tub of goo caught a 17 yr kid. Please someone answer WHy didn't Martin just go home? So are you making the argument that although neither was doing anything unlawful, they were still both equally at fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 04:27 PM) If Zimmerman's statements are to be believed, he had plenty of time to do so but was unable to do so because he wasn't able to overpower the kid. His statements to the police was that his head was struck on the ground >20 times before he pulled the gun. Personally I don't believe that, but if that was the case he would have had time to try to say something or fight back, but was unable to because of the kid's fighting prowess. If I had to guess, I'd say the kid surprised him, hit him, knocked him down, maybe even hit his head forcibly on the ground once or twice, and then Zimmerman pulled the gun and fired. There might have been some rolling around to explain the other witnesses "sights" of different guys on top, but it's hard to call any of those statements credible. He had the injuries of a guy who got hit, went down, hit his head on teh ground in the fall, and then took the shot. Well thank you Cyril Wecht. Any thoughts on the single bullet theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 06:01 PM) Well thank you Cyril Wecht. Any thoughts on the single bullet theory. Forgive me for having paid an ounce of attention to the actual testimony which actually did discuss whether or not his injuries were consistent with being struck on the ground 20+ times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cknolls Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 05:00 PM) So are you making the argument that although neither was doing anything unlawful, they were still both equally at fault? I am saying Martin could have gone home and nothing happens. But he chose to hide and the rest is history. You guys are saying he is a big man and a puss but yet fast enough to "chase" Martin and catch him. No way. I call bulls***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 05:58 PM) And he caught him? in a chase? you guys are really soft in here if you believe this tub of goo caught a 17 yr kid. Please someone answer WHy didn't Martin just go home? The only person who can answer that is dead. Personally, if someone was clearly following me in a car, unidentified, whether or not to break into a sprint would depend on where I was relative to my destination. The guy in the car has the advantage of speed. I might do something like...turning down a sidewalk where a car can't go and trying to get out of sight. Of course, if the guy then gets out on foot and comes after me that way, I've lost my chance to run. According to Zimmerman's statements, he walked the full sidewalk once then turned around, so at some point he got between Martin and his destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 03:05 PM) I am saying Martin could have gone home and nothing happens. But he chose to hide and the rest is history. You guys are saying he is a big man and a puss but yet fast enough to "chase" Martin and catch him. No way. I call bulls***. Absolutely. The thing that distinguishes Martin's behavior from Zimmerman's is that it was far less threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 04:39 PM) "Repeatedly", so it's not stalking there either. Probably not, but didn't he follow him first in his vehicle and then on foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 05:07 PM) That would be one incident though. I didn't get the impression that it had to consist of more than one incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexSoxFan#1 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 03:43 PM) Did those guys bash your head into the concrete? Because that makes things much different. And the cuts he had after the event support it, your irrelevant opinion aside. Your opinion is as irrelevant as mine, you weren't there either. Yeah, his head injuries were so severe he refused to go to the hospital... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexSoxFan#1 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 04:58 PM) And he caught him? in a chase? you guys are really soft in here if you believe this tub of goo caught a 17 yr kid. Please someone answer WHy didn't Martin just go home? Fair question and honestly it was a fatal mistake by TM. Another question, why didn't GZ identify himself as Watch Captain immediately to try and diffuse the situation. We know one of GZ's versions is BS, the one that says TM ambushed him from behind some bushes since there aren't any bushes in the area where the fight broke out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 QUOTE (Cknolls @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 04:58 PM) And he caught him? in a chase? you guys are really soft in here if you believe this tub of goo caught a 17 yr kid. Please someone answer WHy didn't Martin just go home? I've chosen to stay out of this abortion of a thread. But GTFO of here. Just because he's mexican Sherman Klump now doesn't mean he wasn't a healthy, in shape, well-built guy on the night this took place. I don't know what's happened here. I realize the stress he's under. But I thought being stressed out made you lose weight. This dude's packed on like 100 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 07:58 PM) I've chosen to stay out of this abortion of a thread. But GTFO of here. Just because he's mexican Sherman Klump now doesn't mean he wasn't a healthy, in shape, well-built guy on the night this took place. I don't know what's happened here. I realize the stress he's under. But I thought being stressed out made you lose weight. This dude's packed on like 100 pounds. News says he put on 110 since the shooting. Anyone who say pics of him Feb 2012 can see he was much smaller and in some kind of shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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