The Official Thread for Joe Cowley and his Agenda.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, EVERY SOX fan knows the downside to this team, we're all just kind of along for the ride as long as it lasts and enjoying the fact that we're playing meaningful games at this point in the season (as opposed to last year)...but it's almost like it was specifically written to rain on everyone's parade.

 

Something about it is just irksome...he did everything but lump in the fact that Courtney Hawkins is going to be a bust and that JR is cheap.

 

It's like what you would expect the callers to Rongey's post-game show would have said the two previous nights. Not sure why they even gave him column space for it.

 

At least Cowley has his agenda and his attempts at humor and he'll throw out something gossip-wise, but this article could have been written better by 85% of the posters at SoxTalk who know the team better than he does.

 

Yeah, I know things are great now, but everything could go wrong!

 

See, I could be a writer too.

[iamshack]

Yeah, I know things are great now, but everything could go wrong!

 

See, I could be a writer too.

Ahh, we can't criticize a guy simply for writing the truth...is it the article we would have liked to see, perhaps not. But I have no problem with that. At least he writes something that involves at least some modicum of analysis. That's more than I can say for most Chicago baseball writers over the course of my lifetime.

[bigruss]

Well, he should at least point out that so many things haven't gone the Sox way (O-Dawg, Morel, Humber, Floyd, Santiago) yet we're still in first and besides Konerko, no one in the lineup is really having such a start that there is no room for improvement.

 

In fact, this team has very pedestrian/career numbers for many of the players and yet we're in first place, to me that shows the potential of this team.

[caulfield12]

Just write with some balance.

 

Dunn's heading towards the all-time K record while still being very productive. Will that pace continue?

 

The bullpen's blown 9 saves, tying us for first in the AL with the Angels. Only the Mets and Rockies have more. Is that likely to continue as a trend?

 

We have far and away the best rs/ra differential in the AL Central.

 

We've recorded the AL's best record in interleague play...approaching that time of year again.

 

We're only 15-16 at home and 6-6 in one run games. The Indians are 10-2, the Tigers 9-10. We're 1-3 in extra innings.

 

 

All those trends could just as easily turn, and we're still in first right now. We get a LOT more games against the Twins and Royals in the next 2/3rd's of the season. While it's been our downfall, it's also a great opportunity and assuming we're going to struggle in those games isn't necessarily warranted under a new manager.

 

There's no easy fix for the Tigers' defensive problems. Do they have the resources to go out and add more, sure, but there are no guarantees.

 

It would be one thing if it was Detroit 1 1/2 GB and gaining steam, but it's not. It's the Indians, and they already added Jiminez (some would say foolishly) last year. Their attendance is last in the AL, so it's not like they have tons of manuevering room.

 

Sure, if all those players like Fister, Austin Jackson, Albuquerque, Avila, Hafner, Hannahan, Sizemore, Santana, etc., come back and start playing to their potential, we might not be able to hold onto the lead unless we add another piece or two.

 

You never know. But there's not that aura of inevitability the Tigers had last season when Papa Grande never blew a single save. They're more vulnerable than a year ago. Actually, with Cabrera and Kipnis looking the most solid up the middle of any of the three teams, I'd be tempted to go with the Indians over the Sox and Tigers if I were a betting man, but is Derek Lowe going to keep performing so well for the rest of the season? Is Scherzer going to be so bad? Or Floyd? Or Humber? Or Danks? Or Tomlin.

 

At least when you're writing an article, consider BOTH sides.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Well, he should at least point out that so many things haven't gone the Sox way (O-Dawg, Morel, Humber, Floyd, Santiago) yet we're still in first and besides Konerko, no one in the lineup is really having such a start that there is no room for improvement.

 

In fact, this team has very pedestrian/career numbers for many of the players and yet we're in first place, to me that shows the potential of this team.

 

 

And Danks, up until now, has been one of the biggest disappointments of all.

 

But if he's 100% healthy, it's like adding another pitcher, compared to what we've seen out of him so far this year.

 

The same thing as the Tigers getting back a productive Fister.

 

 

We got almost nothing out of Viciedo, Beckham, 3B and Alexei for most of the first 57 games. For every DeAza, AJ or Konerko "overperformance," there's a similar underperformance to balance it out.

 

 

[hawkjt]

Just write with some balance.

 

Dunn's heading towards the all-time K record while still being very productive. Will that pace continue?

 

The bullpen's blown 9 saves, tying us for first in the AL with the Angels. Only the Mets and Rockies have more. Is that likely to continue as a trend?

 

We have far and away the best rs/ra differential in the AL Central.

 

We've recorded the AL's best record in interleague play...approaching that time of year again.

 

We're only 15-16 at home and 6-6 in one run games. The Indians are 10-2, the Tigers 9-10. We're 1-3 in extra innings.

 

 

All those trends could just as easily turn, and we're still in first right now. We get a LOT more games against the Twins and Royals in the next 2/3rd's of the season. While it's been our downfall, it's also a great opportunity and assuming we're going to struggle in those games isn't necessarily warranted under a new manager.

 

There's no easy fix for the Tigers' defensive problems. Do they have the resources to go out and add more, sure, but there are no guarantees.

 

It would be one thing if it was Detroit 1 1/2 GB and gaining steam, but it's not. It's the Indians, and they already added Jiminez (some would say foolishly) last year. Their attendance is last in the AL, so it's not like they have tons of manuevering room.

 

Sure, if all those players like Fister, Austin Jackson, Albuquerque, Avila, Hafner, Hannahan, Sizemore, Santana, etc., come back and start playing to their potential, we might not be able to hold onto the lead unless we add another piece or two.

 

You never know. But there's not that aura of inevitability the Tigers had last season when Papa Grande never blew a single save. They're more vulnerable than a year ago. Actually, with Cabrera and Kipnis looking the most solid up the middle of any of the three teams, I'd be tempted to go with the Indians over the Sox and Tigers if I were a betting man, but is Derek Lowe going to keep performing so well for the rest of the season? Is Scherzer going to be so bad? Or Floyd? Or Humber? Or Danks? Or Tomlin.

 

At least when you're writing an article, consider BOTH sides.

 

 

McNeils effort read like something he tossed off on his train ride home from his radio gig....pure substance-less fluff.

You should write that column instead,with all the above incorporated into a concise thesis that reaches a logical conclusion....this team is still hard to figure,but more good than bad so far.

 

McNeil's column was fashioned by a guy who missed 7 straight wins last week while up fishing in Canada. What he knows is that they have lost 3 of 5 since he returned....snapshot anyone?

 

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, EVERY SOX fan knows the downside to this team, we're all just kind of along for the ride as long as it lasts and enjoying the fact that we're playing meaningful games at this point in the season (as opposed to last year)...but it's almost like it was specifically written to rain on everyone's parade.

 

Something about it is just irksome...he did everything but lump in the fact that Courtney Hawkins is going to be a bust and that JR is cheap.

 

It's like what you would expect the callers to Rongey's post-game show would have said the two previous nights. Not sure why they even gave him column space for it.

 

At least Cowley has his agenda and his attempts at humor and he'll throw out something gossip-wise, but this article could have been written better by 85% of the posters at SoxTalk who know the team better than he does.

Compared to some of your posts a few weeks ago, McNeil is downright optimistic. You criticize him? Look in the mirror.

[caulfield12]

Compared to some of your posts a few weeks ago, McNeil is downright optimistic. You criticize him? Look in the mirror.

 

 

That was because of the Chris Sale situation.

 

And we wouldn't be in first place or close to it without him. We'd be in full rebuild mode still.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

That was because of the Chris Sale situation.

 

And we wouldn't be in first place or close to it without him. We'd be in full rebuild mode still.

 

No it wasnt just that. Sale, Morel, Hudson, attendance. All of it

 

DA is absolutely right

[caulfield12]

No it wasnt just that. Sale, Morel, Hudson, attendance. All of it

 

DA is absolutely right

 

 

And I'm still right about Morel and Hudson.

 

And attendance, for now, is still being used as an excuse for not adding to this team.

 

 

My whole "thesis" was based on the fact that it would be impossible for the Sox to compete without Sale in the starting rotation.

 

I guess everyone in that thread who was predicting he would be back in the rotation right away...they were the ones who were right, but I'm pretty sure there weren't many.

 

 

I've never wavered on Viciedo, and I never backed down that Brian Anderson was going to be a bust, so even Marty and I get some right occasionally.

Those are easier to call than others, like the fact that Zach Stewart's not going to make it.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

And I'm still right about Morel and Hudson.

 

And attendance, for now, is still being used as an excuse for not adding to this team.

 

 

My whole "thesis" was based on the fact that it would be impossible for the Sox to compete without Sale in the starting rotation.

 

I guess everyone in that thread who was predicting he would be back in the rotation right away...they were the ones who were right, but I'm pretty sure there weren't many.

 

 

I've never wavered on Viciedo, and I never backed down that Brian Anderson was going to be a bust, so even Marty and I get some right occasionally.

Those are easier to call than others, like the fact that Zach Stewart's not going to make it.

 

 

Then you should own it, instead of pointing fingers when others do it.

 

 

Brian Anderson? WTF does that have to do with what we are talking about?

[caulfield12]

Since he came back from the bullpen, the White Sox have won 4 out of his 5 starts. 33 2/3 IP, 22 hits, 7 ER's, 9 BB's, 39 K's, 1.87 ERA.

 

Change that 4-1 to 1-4 or 2-3 and we're 29-28 or most likely 30-27 and not in first place.

 

But I highly doubt that the injection of confidence that this team got from Sale coming back healthy would have spread to the entire line-up if we had Dylan Axelrod or Terry Doyle or Stults making those starts. The entire season changed for the better when he went back, and the offense started clicking on all cylinders simultaneously.

 

We'd still be saying 100% that we need to rebuild.

 

 

 

So does anyone really believe we'd still be talking about adding a 3B or about first place if Chris Sale was still our closer?

 

I'll own the fact that I said KW mishandled things and that our franchise was headed for disaster if we couldn't count on Sale in the starting rotation going forward.

 

All the doomsday scenarios that started with that might have been "gloom and doom" or "dark cloudy" or overreactions or exaggerations, but that doesn't mean they were inherently wrong, either.

 

So I'm being called out because I thought they mishandled the Chris Sale situation, fine.

Edited June 8, 2012 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Then you should own it, instead of pointing fingers when others do it.

 

 

Brian Anderson? WTF does that have to do with what we are talking about?

 

 

I argued for years that he was a bust and was going to be a bust and nobody ever owned that they were wrong, either.

 

They simply blamed Anderson's failures on Ozzie Guillen.

 

Despite the fact that he was quickly out of baseball and never came close to making it as a pitcher or with another organization as an outfielder.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I argued for years that he was a bust and was going to be a bust and nobody ever owned that they were wrong, either.

 

They simply blamed Anderson's failures on Ozzie Guillen.

 

Despite the fact that he was quickly out of baseball and never came close to making it as a pitcher or with another organization as an outfielder.

3 years of screwing with a kid's development stands a good shot at screwing up a lot of careers.

[caulfield12]

3 years of screwing with a kid's development stands a good shot at screwing up a lot of careers.

 

 

So I'll say the same thing...many of us believed that KW messed up the development of Sale (specifically), Viciedo, Beckham...you can probably add Santiago and Morel to the list, but those are arguments for another time.

 

The fact of the matter is that IF we had enough depth in our major league bullpen in 2010 and 2011, Chris Sale could have been building up his innings and arm strength to become a starter. 2010, fine, we were in the heat of a pennant race.

 

At the very least, when it was pretty obvious we weren't going to compete last year after the 4-18 stretch in April and May and Dunn/Rios/Peavy clearly weren't going to pull out of it, he could have started at BIRM or CHAR for 2-3 months and then the final month with the White Sox.

 

Or they could have just traded Buehrle and put Chris in the rotation. Last year was basically wasted.

Edited June 8, 2012 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

I argued for years that he was a bust and was going to be a bust and nobody ever owned that they were wrong, either.

 

They simply blamed Anderson's failures on Ozzie Guillen.

 

Despite the fact that he was quickly out of baseball and never came close to making it as a pitcher or with another organization as an outfielder.

 

Oh gmab Caulfield, go ahead and dig up one of these arguments you are talking about. I don't remember any of this and it certainly has nothing to do with the current arguments within the last month.

 

[caulfield12]

Oh gmab Caulfield, go ahead and dig up one of these arguments you are talking about. I don't remember any of this and it certainly has nothing to do with the current arguments within the last month.

 

 

So you disagree with me that the White Sox would be in first place without Chris Sale?

 

I'm still waiting for an example where you or Dick Allen were wrong. How many times does anyone admit they were wrong at SoxTalk?

 

 

I was wrong that the White Sox were going to collapse into an abyss, but I'm not wrong with the subjunctive argument because I'll always believe had Sale stayed in the bullpen for the rest of this season and beyond that this season would have gone into complete rebuild mode. Since we can never know what would have happened, there's no "winning" or losing an argument, any more than I can quantitatively prove that Ozzie Guillen and KW didn't screw up Brian Anderson's career.

 

People can believe whatever they want, in the end.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Then you should own it, instead of pointing fingers when others do it.

 

 

Brian Anderson? WTF does that have to do with what we are talking about?

 

You're just lucky it wasn't some obscure guy from the seventies.

[Dick Allen]

That was because of the Chris Sale situation.

 

And we wouldn't be in first place or close to it without him. We'd be in full rebuild mode still.

They are 4-1 in the games Sale has started since then. 2 wins against LAA and Min they scored 6 runs and another against Seattle they scored 4 , so I would say there's a decent chance they win those. The other against TB was a 2-1 game, so I'm pretty sure, even if you call the Seattle game a loss, they would still be close to first. Try to be more accurate instead of dramatic, you know, pretty much the same thing for which you are ripping McNeil.

[Quin]

You're just lucky it wasn't some obscure guy from the seventies.

[caulfield12]

They are 4-1 in the games Sale has started since then. 2 wins against LAA and Min they scored 6 runs and another against Seattle they scored 4 , so I would say there's a decent chance they win those. The other against TB was a 2-1 game, so I'm pretty sure, even if you call the Seattle game a loss, they would still be close to first. Try to be more accurate instead of dramatic, you know, pretty much the same thing for which you are ripping McNeil.

 

But you're acting like there's a vacuum in which the team would have performed exactly the same way had Sale stayed in the pen.

 

First of all, he probably would have at least one blown save, based on his only (very shaky) relief appearance.

 

Second, there's just no way the whole team comes together offensively without the added confidence of knowing we had an ace back in our rotation that could go out and we'd win 80-85% of the games he started.

 

Remember the effect that BAD 5th starters had on the White Sox from 2001-2004?

 

You can assume all you want, that we would have won those games. We can argue back and forth. I can say that the Atlanta Braves would be hitting exactly the same with ANY hitting coach in baseball, and you can't prove I'm wrong. Just like there's no way to prove that the White Sox offense wouldn't have gone on this same tear with Walker as their hitting coach, yadda yadda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kyyle23]

I have never had a problem admitting I was wrong caulfield. You are too busy writing posts where you argue your own and my case against you to notice when I do so.

 

I'm saying that you are ripping mcneil for doing the same thing you do all the time. You pick a subject of interest within the team and spin it into a dramatic event. If you can find an instance where I do the same thing, please point it out so I can apologize for it.

 

And again, I'm not telling you not to post. I just find it strange that you are getting angry at McNeil for doing it.

[caulfield12]

I have never had a problem admitting I was wrong caulfield. You are too busy writing posts where you argue your own and my case against you to notice when I do so.

 

I'm saying that you are ripping mcneil for doing the same thing you do all the time. You pick a subject of interest within the team and spin it into a dramatic event. If you can find an instance where I do the same thing, please point it out so I can apologize for it.

 

And again, I'm not telling you not to post. I just find it strange that you are getting angry at McNeil for doing it.

 

Because Sale not being in the rotation in the future, at that time, WAS a dramatic event. Perhaps the most important one of the entire season.

 

It necessitated one of the longest threads of the season here.

 

I could find 20-30 articles from reputable baseball writers questioning the White Sox as well. It's not like I was the only one criticizing Williams.

 

This McNeil article was written in the middle of one of the best strings this team has been on all season long, for what purpose?

 

I don't think you can find a single comment in recent weeks where I have overreacted to anything, but you're welcome to point them out to me as well.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

But you're acting like there's a vacuum in which the team would have performed exactly the same way had Sale stayed in the pen.

 

First of all, he probably would have at least one blown save, based on his only (very shaky) relief appearance.

 

Second, there's just no way the whole team comes together offensively without the added confidence of knowing we had an ace back in our rotation that could go out and we'd win 80-85% of the games he started.

 

Remember the effect that BAD 5th starters had on the White Sox from 2001-2004?

 

You can assume all you want, that we would have won those games. We can argue back and forth. I can say that the Atlanta Braves would be hitting exactly the same with ANY hitting coach in baseball, and you can't prove I'm wrong. Just like there's no way to prove that the White Sox offense wouldn't have gone on this same tear with Walker as their hitting coach, yadda yadda.

So you're saying the White Sox hitters went on a hot streak because Sale remained in the starting rotation? How come they weren't hot when he was in the rotation earlier? Put down the bong. If the BAD 5th starter is condusive to bad offense, how do you explain the White Sox still winning and hitting with Floyd 5.38, Humber 5.68 and Danks 5.70? And the Sox hit pretty well during the time period you mentioned. If you have good hitters, you'll probably have a good offense.

 

And more Greg Walker? Really?

Edited June 9, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

So you're saying the White Sox hitters went on a hot streak because Sale remained in the starting rotation? How come they weren't hot when he was in the rotation earlier? Put down the bong. If the BAD 5th starter is condusive to bad offense, how do you explain the White Sox still winning and hitting with Floyd 5.38, Humber 5.68 and Danks 5.70? And the Sox hit pretty well during the time period you mentioned. If you have good hitters, you'll probably have a good offense.

 

And more Greg Walker? Really?

 

 

None of those pitchers were AS bad as the stats you're throwing out there three weeks later look. When's the last time Danks pitched? Why didn't you include Quintana in there, who has pitched more innings that Danks recently?

 

Yes, I'm sure there was a psychological effect on the team knowing that Sale was going to be a part of the rotation again. When the team knows it has a chance to win nearly every game a starter's out there, it helps the offense to relax and not put so much pressure on themselves.

 

You can argue all you want that the White Sox would have gone 4-1 and would still be in first place without Sale, but you should put down the bong yourself if you actually believe that's true. He was the best pitcher in the AL this past month, no way we could have replaced that.

 

With Sale in the bullpen, 75% of the talk around here would still be about rebuilding.

 

 

Now we have good hitters? Why weren't they good last year? Which is it?