2012-2013 NCAA Basketball thread

[Rex Hudler]

That's not what I said. Learn to read. And player development was ONE critique of mine with Crean, the main one was his ability to read games and adjust gameplans/personnel.

 

Jesus Christ. Indiana fans. The f***ing worst.

 

 

How many IU games have you watched from beginning to end this year?

Be honest. The fact that you are acting as if you know all about IU basketball is what is the worst. It's idiotic. When I start critiquing Illinois basketball to that degree, tell me to shut up and I'll do so. Until then, don't act as if you are an expert and when an IU fan that has seen way more games than you have disagrees act as if we're stupid.

Then again, maybe I am stupid because I am arguing with a brick wall again. Sadly, the brick wall knows about the same amount about IU basketball as you do.

[Rex Hudler]

THIS.

 

Lots of sweeping generalities from both sides in this thread. Certain guys are self-motivated and will put in the extra time to get better (Victor Oladipo at Indiana, Deron Williams at Illinois comes to mind). Deron and Luther Head made Bruce Weber a great player development guy... until he wasn't. I'm sure Crean helped Wade when Wade was at Marquette, but it isn't like Crean was working with Wade every offseason as he became the player that willed the Heat to the '06 Finals (or Weber with Deron to make him an Olympian). Likewise, I'm sure Crean has helped Oladipo, but it's Oladipo that's making the decision to stay in the gym late and put in the extra hours to improve as a player. The impact of a college coach on player development generally is seriously overstated.

 

You hit the nail on the head. I stated as much earlier, just not as well. The head coach recruits the right players and by that I mean talent and mentality. Crean has stated he looks for winners and when he recruits AAU games and how players play in AAU games that may not mean much or when the score isn't close weighs in on their decisions. The head coach sets the culture of work hard and improve or you don't play. The head coach gives the players the tools to improve their game, which includes but is not limited to assistant coaches who have the ability to teach. Calbert Cheaney can't coach on the floor, but do you not think he has influence on players as they watch film together? Do you know think players are going to listen to him? One on one instruction time with the head coach is not frequent. Yes, there is instruction during practice, but most of that is verbal and brief as they work on plays.

 

If the head coach does all of that, and the players do the work, he gets credit for developing his players. If the players don't do the work or he has recruited players without much room for improvement, then he gets the label of not developing players. Recruiting and player development go hand in hand, along with setting the right culture for a program.

[Jenksismyhero]

How many IU games have you watched from beginning to end this year?

Be honest. The fact that you are acting as if you know all about IU basketball is what is the worst. It's idiotic. When I start critiquing Illinois basketball to that degree, tell me to shut up and I'll do so. Until then, don't act as if you are an expert and when an IU fan that has seen way more games than you have disagrees act as if we're stupid.

Then again, maybe I am stupid because I am arguing with a brick wall again. Sadly, the brick wall knows about the same amount about IU basketball as you do.

 

I watch way more Big Ten basketball than I should, but i've probably watched Indiana games the second most behind Illinois games. Probably about 10 or 15 at minimum. Probably the same amount, maybe a little less, last year. Two of my good buddies who I talk college basketball with are Indiana fans, the rest are Illinois fans, so debating the two programs is a weekly thing. I've seen how Indiana struggles in the half court. I've seen how they struggle when they can't run. I've seen the leap a guy like Oladipa has made (a point you for some reason continue ignoring) and i've seen the lack of a leap of other guys, including Zeller. It don't have to watch every second of every game and read Peegs in order to see that.

 

Get off your f***ing pedestal. It's Indiana basketball. Congrats to being relevant again. I know it's been a while. You're just being an asshole at this point and you STILL haven't addressed anyone's argument about Crean's coaching ability or his ability to develop guys except to say that he has and that anyone who thinks differently is an idiot. In the adult world that's not how you argue and debate, and everyone sees right through the bulls***.

[illinilaw08]

You hit the nail on the head. I stated as much earlier, just not as well. The head coach recruits the right players and by that I mean talent and mentality. Crean has stated he looks for winners and when he recruits AAU games and how players play in AAU games that may not mean much or when the score isn't close weighs in on their decisions. The head coach sets the culture of work hard and improve or you don't play. The head coach gives the players the tools to improve their game, which includes but is not limited to assistant coaches who have the ability to teach. Calbert Cheaney can't coach on the floor, but do you not think he has influence on players as they watch film together? Do you know think players are going to listen to him? One on one instruction time with the head coach is not frequent. Yes, there is instruction during practice, but most of that is verbal and brief as they work on plays.

 

If the head coach does all of that, and the players do the work, he gets credit for developing his players. If the players don't do the work or he has recruited players without much room for improvement, then he gets the label of not developing players. Recruiting and player development go hand in hand, along with setting the right culture for a program.

 

The point I disagree with here is that Crean is any different than any other coach in this regard (and maybe that wasn't your intention), or that Crean is somehow doing it differently than other coaches. Every coach in the country recruits and offers guys that they think are going to be good college players. Every coach in the country misses on guys. Maybe those guys don't put in the time. Maybe those guys didn't develop the way the coach thought they might. Every coach is recruiting "winners." Every coach is also recruiting talent. Sometimes the talent doesn't pan out (see Jereme Richmond), sometimes it does. Sometimes you have a special player or group that put in the time and get better. Sometimes you don't.

 

Frankly, the guy in college basketball who is the best in the business right now at "developing talent" is Calipari. If your kid is a 5 star recruit, send them to Calipari and see them get drafted in the first round the next year (even this year, Noel, Poythress, Goodwin and Cauley-Stein are showing up in first round mocks).

 

EDIT: The best a coach can do is try to create the right culture and bring talent into that culture. Crean did an excellent job with this group at Indiana, but it is WAY too early in his tenure to say whether or not he will have the same success with different players (see Weber, Bruce).

Edited March 12, 2013 by illinilaw08

[RockRaines]

The point I disagree with here is that Crean is any different than any other coach in this regard (and maybe that wasn't your intention), or that Crean is somehow doing it differently than other coaches. Every coach in the country recruits and offers guys that they think are going to be good college players. Every coach in the country misses on guys. Maybe those guys don't put in the time. Maybe those guys didn't develop the way the coach thought they might. Every coach is recruiting "winners." Every coach is also recruiting talent. Sometimes the talent doesn't pan out (see Jereme Richmond), sometimes it does. Sometimes you have a special player or group that put in the time and get better. Sometimes you don't.

 

Frankly, the guy in college basketball who is the best in the business right now at "developing talent" is Calipari. If your kid is a 5 star recruit, send them to Calipari and see them get drafted in the first round the next year (even this year, Noel, Poythress, Goodwin and Cauley-Stein are showing up in first round mocks).

 

EDIT: The best a coach can do is try to create the right culture and bring talent into that culture. Crean did an excellent job with this group at Indiana, but it is WAY too early in his tenure to say whether or not he will have the same success with different players (see Weber, Bruce).

Alot of us believed that until this year. Even he misses on guys apparently.

[ZoomSlowik]

Frankly, the guy in college basketball who is the best in the business right now at "developing talent" is Calipari. If your kid is a 5 star recruit, send them to Calipari and see them get drafted in the first round the next year (even this year, Noel, Poythress, Goodwin and Cauley-Stein are showing up in first round mocks).

 

Someone will probably give you grief for that, but I do find it pretty amazing that he's been able to get those blue-chippers to play defense and generally share the ball. Even this year, they're a pretty respectable 33rd in offensive efficiency and 53rd in defensive efficiency, and that latter one has fallen a lot since Noel got hurt (I read a blurb somewhere that their defense is over 15 points worse per 100 possessions since his injury).

 

Speaking of Kentucky, their situation fascinates me right now. Does Cal WANT anyone to come back next year? Normally that'd be a stupid question, but I wonder this year. They might want to distance themselves from this class and who knows what promises he made to the incoming class.

 

Under normal circumstances, I'd say only Noel should declare (even with the ACL, he's a top-5 pick, maybe #1). Poythress, Cauley-Stein and Goodwin could all really use another year.

 

However, there would be a huge roster crunch if they did come back. The Harrison twins are clearly going to play a ton, and Young, Johnson and Lee could all crack the lineup too. Then there's Harrow and Wiltjer, who are almost certainly back.

 

Can they really balance that many talented players? I suppose it's moot because those guys will probably go if they're first rounders, but that would be an interesting team if one or more came back. They could probably survive without Goodwin easily, I think they could use Cauley-Stein or Poythress coming back for some proven production inside (I have no idea how much of an early impact Johnson and Lee will make).

 

Of course all of that changes if they land Wiggins, Randle or Gordon too.

Edited March 12, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Heads22]

I'd put Baylor in over ISU, UT and Boise. I also think MTSU somehow gets in there

 

 

In what world does Baylor get in over Iowa State? Iowa State beat Baylor twice, finished ahead of them in the Big 12 and have a better RPI.

[Rex Hudler]

I watch way more Big Ten basketball than I should, but i've probably watched Indiana games the second most behind Illinois games. Probably about 10 or 15 at minimum. Probably the same amount, maybe a little less, last year. Two of my good buddies who I talk college basketball with are Indiana fans, the rest are Illinois fans, so debating the two programs is a weekly thing. I've seen how Indiana struggles in the half court. I've seen how they struggle when they can't run. I've seen the leap a guy like Oladipa has made (a point you for some reason continue ignoring) and i've seen the lack of a leap of other guys, including Zeller. It don't have to watch every second of every game and read Peegs in order to see that.

 

Get off your f***ing pedestal. It's Indiana basketball. Congrats to being relevant again. I know it's been a while. You're just being an asshole at this point and you STILL haven't addressed anyone's argument about Crean's coaching ability or his ability to develop guys except to say that he has and that anyone who thinks differently is an idiot. In the adult world that's not how you argue and debate, and everyone sees right through the bulls***.

 

I most certainly have, just not in direct reply to any of your posts. It's not a pedestal at all. I'm the first to criticize my own team, but I'm also the first to defend it when someone doesn't know what they are talking about. If you think Zeller has not improved or that Hulls has not improved leaps and bounds over his four years, you are simply blind to what is good basketball. If you choose to ignore several other posts I have made referring to the improvement of different players just because it wasn't in reply to your post, I cannot help you. I asked you to scroll back and read 4 or 5 replies ago and you keep saying I haven't provided a response. I certainly have.

[Rex Hudler]

The point I disagree with here is that Crean is any different than any other coach in this regard (and maybe that wasn't your intention), or that Crean is somehow doing it differently than other coaches. Every coach in the country recruits and offers guys that they think are going to be good college players. Every coach in the country misses on guys. Maybe those guys don't put in the time. Maybe those guys didn't develop the way the coach thought they might. Every coach is recruiting "winners." Every coach is also recruiting talent. Sometimes the talent doesn't pan out (see Jereme Richmond), sometimes it does. Sometimes you have a special player or group that put in the time and get better. Sometimes you don't.

 

Frankly, the guy in college basketball who is the best in the business right now at "developing talent" is Calipari. If your kid is a 5 star recruit, send them to Calipari and see them get drafted in the first round the next year (even this year, Noel, Poythress, Goodwin and Cauley-Stein are showing up in first round mocks).

 

EDIT: The best a coach can do is try to create the right culture and bring talent into that culture. Crean did an excellent job with this group at Indiana, but it is WAY too early in his tenure to say whether or not he will have the same success with different players (see Weber, Bruce).

 

 

I won't argue with any of that. I don't know what other coaches look for when they recruit so I cannot speak to them. From the very beginning, I distanced myself from the comment that Crean was one of the best developers of talent. My argument was when someone else replied that he is not good because none of our guys other than Oladipo have shown any improvement (and that was just a fluke), which is just assinine. I don't know whether Crean is better than any one particular coach, but I can say with zero doubt our guys have improved during his tenure and from last year to this year specifically.

 

You are correct in that this proves nothing for down the road. My guess is the Bruce Weber is a good head coach and is good at developing players, but it seems he lost control of the culture. It can happen to lots of programs. A typical way it happens is a small senior class with a lack of senior leadership and a few players that don't put the work in or think their way is better than the coaches. It can take time to rebuild a roster with the right guys, especially if the malcontents (for a lack of a better word) stick around and in essence don't allow the right kind of leadership to develop. I can tell you from playing sports, that no matter what the coach does, without internal leadership, a team will never reach its potential.

 

Again, my argument is not to laud Crean as the best coach, the best developer of talent or to say that he will always have Indiana at the top (though unless he starts cheating and gets us back into trouble, we're not going back to doormat status!), just defending the idea that he is not good at developing talent based especially on this year's team. Thank you for having a civil discussion and having an open mind.

[Rex Hudler]

In what world does Baylor get in over Iowa State? Iowa State beat Baylor twice, finished ahead of them in the Big 12 and have a better RPI.

 

Bizarro world?

[zenryan]

wow, USF taking bad uniforms to a whole new level.

[farmteam]

How in the hell is New Trier only down 6 to Simeon with 3:41 left?

[RockRaines]

I won't argue with any of that. I don't know what other coaches look for when they recruit so I cannot speak to them. From the very beginning, I distanced myself from the comment that Crean was one of the best developers of talent. My argument was when someone else replied that he is not good because none of our guys other than Oladipo have shown any improvement (and that was just a fluke), which is just assinine. I don't know whether Crean is better than any one particular coach, but I can say with zero doubt our guys have improved during his tenure and from last year to this year specifically.

 

You are correct in that this proves nothing for down the road. My guess is the Bruce Weber is a good head coach and is good at developing players, but it seems he lost control of the culture. It can happen to lots of programs. A typical way it happens is a small senior class with a lack of senior leadership and a few players that don't put the work in or think their way is better than the coaches. It can take time to rebuild a roster with the right guys, especially if the malcontents (for a lack of a better word) stick around and in essence don't allow the right kind of leadership to develop. I can tell you from playing sports, that no matter what the coach does, without internal leadership, a team will never reach its potential.

 

Again, my argument is not to laud Crean as the best coach, the best developer of talent or to say that he will always have Indiana at the top (though unless he starts cheating and gets us back into trouble, we're not going back to doormat status!), just defending the idea that he is not good at developing talent based especially on this year's team. Thank you for having a civil discussion and having an open mind.

You have your moments of homerism but this isnt one.

[Brian]

How in the hell is New Trier only down 6 to Simeon with 3:41 left?

 

New Trier had lots of fight and got hot during a few spurts.

[farmteam]

New Trier had lots of fight and got hot during a few spurts.

I think the supersectional is still farther than they made it any of my four years.

[Rex Hudler]

You have your moments of homerism but this isnt one.

 

Who doesn't? lol

[RockRaines]

thread killer Rex.

 

 

[whitesoxfan99]

I love that Bilas calls refs out for not knowing what a charge is.

[farmteam]

I love that Bilas calls refs out for not knowing what a charge is.

Yeah. Clark Kellogg was doing the same thing during the Indiana-Michigan game this past Sunday.

[Rex Hudler]

Oladipo named Sporting News POY. Zeller 3rd Team All-America.

 

1st Team All-America

Victor Oladipo - Indiana

Marcus Smart (Frosh of Year) - Oklahoma St

Trey Burke - Michigan

Kelly Olynyk - Gonzaga

Otto Porter - Georgetown

 

2nd Team

Jeff Withey - Kansas

DeShaun Thomas - Ohio State

Shabazz Muhammad - UCLA

Doug McDermott - Creighton

Seth Curry - Duke

 

3rd Team

Russ Smith - Louisville

Cody Zeller - Indiana

Ben McLemore - Kansas

Allen Crabbe - Cal

Shane Larkin - Miami

 

All-Freshman (No B1G Frosh)

Marcus Smart - Oklahoma St

Shabazz Muhammad - UCLA

Ben McLemore - Kansas

Nerlens Noel - Kentucky

Anthony Bennett - UNLV

[RockRaines]

DeShaun Thomas outscores every player on the first team. Outrebounds them as well I assume (without looking).

[farmteam]

I always like Mark Titus's Power Rankings. The part on the Hoosiers is spot on.

[Jenksismyhero]

Except for the part where he questions Crean. NEVER QUESTION THE ABILITY OF COACH JESUS CREAN.

 

What's everyone's prediction for the tourney? Mine is Illinois gets beat by Minn, Indiana loses to Michigan and Michigan State loses to Michigan in the final. Burke is the MVP.

[farmteam]

Except for the part where he questions Crean. NEVER QUESTION THE ABILITY OF COACH JESUS CREAN.

 

What's everyone's prediction for the tourney? Mine is Illinois gets beat by Minn, Indiana loses to Michigan and Michigan State loses to Michigan in the final. Burke is the MVP.

Look in the BTT thread, bruh.

[He_Gawn]

Except for the part where he questions Crean. NEVER QUESTION THE ABILITY OF COACH JESUS CREAN.

 

What's everyone's prediction for the tourney? Mine is Illinois gets beat by Minn, Indiana loses to Michigan and Michigan State loses to Michigan in the final. Burke is the MVP.

 

I think every Indiana fan questions Crean at some point or another... We just questioned your thought process earlier in the week.