2012-2013 NCAA Basketball thread

[RockRaines]

Stevens grew up a huge IU fan. His father played football at IU and his mother went there too.

 

Won't matter, Crean is a recruiting machine and one of the best "developers" of talent in the country at this time. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon. They'll be consistently in the top 20 for however long he is there. Next year will be a "down" year, but a down year now includes an NCAA birth, top 5 B1G finish, and a chance to make some noise in the tournament.

Wait. What makes him one of the best developers of talent in the country?

[farmteam]

Do people really think Crean is a good coach? He seems to get outcoached quite a bit and his substitution patterns always seem to screw momentum up in bad ways. I think he finally got some talent and inherited a great home court.

 

I'm interested to see where he takes the program from here. No Zeller, Oladipo, Watford or Hulls. Even with a couple of good recruiting classes, I think this is their year to take a shot at the title before dropping back to the middle of the pack in the Big Ten.

I think Crean gets a bad rap. He came in with the reputation of being a great recruiter and not so great a coach, and it's hard to shake those. Did he oversub too much in the first half? Yes. But then at the end of the game, he made the smart move by not calling a timeout to allow Michigan to catch their breath since Michigan was out of timeouts. Just little things like that.

 

You're also short changing other things Crean does. Consider the bolded -- who brought those players in? Crean and his staff. Even more to the point of "coaching credentials" is that you mentioned Oladipo. He didn't exactly come to Bloomington as some highly touted recruit, and now he might be the National Player of the Year. Most of the credit goes to Oladipo and his work ethic, but I'm guessing Crean had a little bit to do with the development of him and Sheehey as well.

 

All of this is why I like Crean the Coach, even if I'm not so much a fan of Crean the Person. Though, since I've been critical of Crean the Person in the last several posts, I will say that I've frequently heard stories of the good things he does around Monroe County. Not just the "LOOK AT ME I'M AT A CHARITY GALA" type stuff, just helping people out when cameras aren't around.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think Crean gets a bad rap. He came in with the reputation of being a great recruiter and not so great a coach, and it's hard to shake those. Did he oversub too much in the first half? Yes. But then at the end of the game, he made the smart move by not calling a timeout to allow Michigan to catch their breath since Michigan was out of timeouts. Just little things like that.

 

You're also short changing other things Crean does. Consider the bolded -- who brought those players in? Crean and his staff. Even more to the point of "coaching credentials" is that you mentioned Oladipo. He didn't exactly come to Bloomington as some highly touted recruit, and now he might be the National Player of the Year. Most of the credit goes to Oladipo and his work ethic, but I'm guessing Crean had a little bit to do with the development of him and Sheehey as well.

 

All of this is why I like Crean the Coach, even if I'm not so much a fan of Crean the Person. Though, since I've been critical of Crean the Person in the last several posts, I will say that I've frequently heard stories of the good things he does around Monroe County. Not just the "LOOK AT ME I'M AT A CHARITY GALA" type stuff, just helping people out when cameras aren't around.

 

See, I would argue that he hasn't really made any of his players better, he just simply has better players. Zeller hasn't gotten much better in his two years. He still has the same good skills, as well as the same weaknesses to his game. Oladipo made the jump, but I think everyone would agree that was sort of an unexpected fluke. It's not like his basketball "skills" have increased, he just gives 110% Derrick Rose style effort and has a knack for making critical plays at critical times in the game. I guess that can be Crean influencing his basketball IQ, but I dunno, he's still not some guy you want dribbling the ball needing a basket. He's the perfect glue guy, not the go-to-guy.

 

Hulls/Watford/Sheehey do what they've always done at IU - shoot the ball. If they aren't hitting their shots they don't impact the game that much.

 

 

 

 

[farmteam]

See, I would argue that he hasn't really made any of his players better, he just simply has better players. Zeller hasn't gotten much better in his two years. He still has the same good skills, as well as the same weaknesses to his game. Oladipo made the jump, but I think everyone would agree that was sort of an unexpected fluke. It's not like his basketball "skills" have increased, he just gives 110% Derrick Rose style effort and has a knack for making critical plays at critical times in the game. I guess that can be Crean influencing his basketball IQ, but I dunno, he's still not some guy you want dribbling the ball needing a basket. He's the perfect glue guy, not the go-to-guy.

 

Hulls/Watford/Sheehey do what they've always done at IU - shoot the ball. If they aren't hitting their shots they don't impact the game that much.

Hulls you have a point, but Sheehey does way more than shoot the ball. He's been cold lately, I'll grant you that, but Sheehey's at his best when he's not just shooting the ball.

 

But again, I think it's shortchanging Crean to say "he just simply has better players" as if they showed up out of the blue in Bloomington, no thanks to him or his staff. However, I think that "coaching" and "recruiting" are not as easily separated as the conventional wisdom seems to think they are.

 

EDIT: Rereading your post, I think you're doing a disservice to Oladipo too. He does give Derrick Rose style effort, but his "skills" have also definitely improved year-over-year. Shooting and ball handling mostly.

Edited March 11, 2013 by farmteam

[Jenksismyhero]

Hulls you have a point, but Sheehey does way more than shoot the ball. He's been cold lately, I'll grant you that, but Sheehey's at his best when he's not just shooting the ball.

 

But again, I think it's shortchanging Crean to say "he just simply has better players" as if they showed up out of the blue in Bloomington, no thanks to him or his staff. However, I think that "coaching" and "recruiting" are not as easily separated as the conventional wisdom seems to think they are.

 

EDIT: Rereading your post, I think you're doing a disservice to Oladipo too. He does give Derrick Rose style effort, but his "skills" have also definitely improved year-over-year. Shooting and ball handling mostly.

 

For sure, recruiting he should get all the credit. I just haven't been very impressed with his coaching skills.

 

As to Oladipo, he's a great player. But he's not a guy that's going to score you points on traditional plays. Does he make the occasional open three? Sure. Can he make the occasional drive? Sure. But 90% of his game is put-backs and transition points. And that's great, and he's been great. But I'm not sure how much a coach can really teach those things.

[IlliniKrush]

I like him as a coach because he's brought us back pretty quickly, and by all appearances without doing anything shady. But as a person, he annoys the hell out of me. Very cocky, and frankly way too preachy (including his never ending bible thumping). But frankly, although I want the coaches of the teams I'm a fan of to be likable, I'd rather I like them as coaches first. That's what they're there for.

 

Like I said about this Meyer/Crean tiff, it is hard for me to be impartial about it because I'm not exactly Jeff Meyer's biggest fan, or anywhere close. I thought Dana O'Neill had a good piece on it (as she usually does). Doesn't matter if Meyer really did tell Crean to go f*** himself; Crean can't react like that. That negatively affects him as a coach and a leader.

Crean, at best, is a very weird guy. You could call him a lot of other things. It's no surprise he seems generally hated by many. There's definitely something amiss about him. That creepy smile after that exchange yesterday was ridiculous.

 

Yesterday was an embarrassment. Cmon Rex. "So what, move on?" You just won the BTT, go jump around with your team or something. Instead, let's take the focus off that and go call someone out in the middle of the floor and on national TV. Please don't tell me that he didn't know a camera would be on him, either. Post game cameras are always on the coach, especially the winning coach.

 

This whole "we're back" thing is getting tiresome. Again, it's IU, you knew they weren't going to be down for long. In college bball, you need a few good recruits and you can turn it around in a minute. They got Zeller, etc...and they are where they are. This isn't a miracle for IU to be good again.

 

Any IU fan that is satisfied with this season, regardless of what happens in the tournament, is setting the bar much lower than any IU fan should. If they don't make the FF, I would guess most fans with high expectations won't look back years from now on 12-13 and say "OMG remember that awesome team, what a year." They'll remember that they didn't finish the job, when they have arguably the best team/most talent in the country. This is the same team that played with Kentucky last year, basically went with them blow for blow, and there's not Kentucky this year. This could be the best chance IU has at a FF/title for the next 10 years, who knows.

 

Seems that IU fans could be setting themselves up to be "OK" with an earlier than expected tournament loss. If you are going to be Indiana, and you want to play the banner pointing game, then play that card to the max. Expect championships and don't be satisfied by this drawn out "we're back" thing.

 

Sorry Rex I just see you coming on here if they lose in the sweet 16 and saying "Disappointed they lost, but what a great season." I like Balta's attitude yesterday of "go win this f***ing thing."

[IlliniKrush]

But that's my point -- my main experience with college basketball was (obviously) with Indiana, and in the student section* people could wear an opponent's jersey, even though we paid less to be in those seats.

 

*I understand Indiana's "student section" is pretty convoluted. It's gotten better in the last few years though, because they made the lower left corner (on TV, it's on the near left side) a "General Admission" student section so people can all get up near the front and it looks like a legitimate student section. And then there's behind the left side basket.

 

Saw a tweet today that IU's student section is 9% bigger than MSU's, Michigan's and Ohio State's student sections combined. That's misleading though, since besides the aforementioned improvements, students are really spread out in the arena. They're not in a cohesive "section."

Apparently there was a listed rule, but the penalty shouldn't be "kicked out" as it said that they would be moved to another section. I'll admit it does look terrible if there's an opposing fan in the student section, apparently on TV. But if he bought the ticket, and there's no rule on being a Michigan student to be in that section, then I say he should be able to wear it, and you should go yell at the guy who sold his ticket to the opponent.

 

IU, as of a few years ago, didn't care that there was an opposing fan in the student section, as I did it twice. I did, however use an IU student ticket to get in so I'm sure they could have kicked me out if I couldn't show them an ID. I wore all this crimson stuff on the way in, as soon as I got in I took it all off. It was actually pretty fun getting harassed minus one or two douchebags, but I realize that would happen everywhere.

 

I never really understood the student section at IU, because like you said it's everywhere and there's no real "group," correct? I remember a few of my buddies were up in the 2nd level one game, some were behind the basket, and they said their seats rotated almost every game/couldn't actually get tickets for every game.

[LittleHurt05]

It seems like some Indiana fans are just happy to be relevant again, while others have expectations to return to the upper echelon of college hoops with teams like Kansas & Duke.

[farmteam]

IU, as of a few years ago, didn't care that there was an opposing fan in the student section, as I did it twice. I did, however use an IU student ticket to get in so I'm sure they could have kicked me out if I couldn't show them an ID. I wore all this crimson stuff on the way in, as soon as I got in I took it all off. It was actually pretty fun getting harassed minus one or two douchebags, but I realize that would happen everywhere.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that rule (needing a student ID with a student ticket). You're right that that's what IU does. If that's all this was, then no problem. But hypothetically, a Michigan student wearing an Indiana shirt would be unacceptable? That just seems too...1984...for my tastes. Plus, if we didn't allow that, we would never get an aerial picture of a full Memorial Stadium, since they only take those when we play Ohio State so everyone is wearing red. Even half the student section wears Buckeye gear for those games. Here's to eternally hoping Hoosier football isn't such a doormat for much longer....

 

 

I never really understood the student section at IU, because like you said it's everywhere and there's no real "group," correct? I remember a few of my buddies were up in the 2nd level one game, some were behind the basket, and they said their seats rotated almost every game/couldn't actually get tickets for every game.

There's no group in the sense that not ALL of the students are in one section. It's confusing, because there is a large mass of students behind the left side basket, and on the nearside lower left level. That looks like our student section, because it's big enough to be one. But that's only a small percentage of all the student seats. The rest are up in the corners of the lower level where it seems the balcony is about the fall down on you, and then scattered all over the balcony itself.

 

The tickets do rotate every game. My freshman year (of my four years, that was by far our best team [the DJ White/Eric Gordon/Sampson's Debacle team]) I only had seats behind the basket or in that near lower level section for about 4-5 of the 15 or so home games. The rest were in random seats, or we didn't have tickets (that year, it was every student had tickets to every game except for two, which were randomly selected for each group of ticket holders). So yes, you don't have tickets to every game -- so, for the sake of this conversation let's say Assembly Hall has 10,000 students seats. There might be 12,000 student tickets, but 2,000 of them aren't there on any given night.

 

A quick Google search couldn't give me any specific numbers on the student section, but I know at least IU's are out there somewhere, and I assume other schools' are as well. I'll look more later.

 

EDIT: Looks like IU has 12,400 student tickets this year.

Edited March 11, 2013 by farmteam

[He_Gawn]

Wait. What makes him one of the best developers of talent in the country?

 

B1G fans can turn a blind eye with their Crean hate and say Crean can't coach or develop, but it's a huge reason he's racking up huge recruiting classes right now. Each kid keeps pointing to "how he develops players", Vonleh especially.

 

We get it. Everyone hates Crean outside of IU and MSU fans. Indiana used to have a coach that everyone despised too. As long as Indiana is winning, doing it the "right way", and kids are awesome off and on the court, IU fans are going to be estatic.

[Balta1701]

B1G fans can turn a blind eye with their Crean hate and say Crean can't coach or develop, but it's a huge reason he's racking up huge recruiting classes right now. Each kid keeps pointing to "how he develops players", Vonleh especially.

 

We get it. Everyone hates Crean outside of IU and MSU fans. Indiana used to have a coach that everyone despised too. As long as Indiana is winning, doing it the "right way", and kids are awesome off and on the court, IU fans are going to be estatic.

Crean isn't nearly good enough at throwing chairs.

[He_Gawn]

See, I would argue that he hasn't really made any of his players better, he just simply has better players. Zeller hasn't gotten much better in his two years. He still has the same good skills, as well as the same weaknesses to his game. Oladipo made the jump, but I think everyone would agree that was sort of an unexpected fluke. It's not like his basketball "skills" have increased, he just gives 110% Derrick Rose style effort and has a knack for making critical plays at critical times in the game. I guess that can be Crean influencing his basketball IQ, but I dunno, he's still not some guy you want dribbling the ball needing a basket. He's the perfect glue guy, not the go-to-guy.

 

Hulls/Watford/Sheehey do what they've always done at IU - shoot the ball. If they aren't hitting their shots they don't impact the game that much.

 

LMAO

 

Good lord...

[He_Gawn]

I guess we should just discredit Crean because he gets "good players".

 

No kidding? That's one of the keys to WINNING basketball games. Should Crean take a couple years off to let some others have some recruits? WTF?

[farmteam]

(Balta1701 @ Mar 11, 2013 -> 01:34 PM) Crean isn't nearly good enough at throwing chairs.

He should learn from the girl at ~1:44 of this video.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by farmteam

[RockRaines]

B1G fans can turn a blind eye with their Crean hate and say Crean can't coach or develop, but it's a huge reason he's racking up huge recruiting classes right now. Each kid keeps pointing to "how he develops players", Vonleh especially.

 

We get it. Everyone hates Crean outside of IU and MSU fans. Indiana used to have a coach that everyone despised too. As long as Indiana is winning, doing it the "right way", and kids are awesome off and on the court, IU fans are going to be estatic.

So, your evidence is?

 

I don't believe he's top 3 in the conference. Prove me wrong.

[Jenksismyhero]

LMAO

 

Good lord...

 

Nice retort.

 

Show me an example. Is Zeller better this year than last year? Hulls? Wafford? How about Yogi from the non conference to the conference season?

 

Crean's accomplishments have come from having a top 50 all time NBA player and 2 National Player of the Year nominees on the same team. If you're seriously suggesting it's because of his ability to coach em up, you have not been paying attention.

 

I'm not at all suggesting he can't coach - he's been a coach at two high level D1 schools, obviously he can to some degree. I'm just saying he's not known for his coaching and hasn't really shown the ability to out coach some of the other really good coaches in the league to this point.

[farmteam]

Show me an example. Is Zeller better this year than last year? Hulls? Wafford? How about Yogi from the non conference to the conference season?

How much improvement are you looking for? I'm not suggesting there was monumental improvement, but I think there's more than you're admitting to.

[southsider2k5]

Nice retort.

 

Show me an example. Is Zeller better this year than last year? Hulls? Wafford? How about Yogi from the non conference to the conference season?

 

Crean's accomplishments have come from having a top 50 all time NBA player and 2 National Player of the Year nominees on the same team. If you're seriously suggesting it's because of his ability to coach em up, you have not been paying attention.

 

I'm not at all suggesting he can't coach - he's been a coach at two high level D1 schools, obviously he can to some degree. I'm just saying he's not known for his coaching and hasn't really shown the ability to out coach some of the other really good coaches in the league to this point.

 

Um, Oladipo?

[RockRaines]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with that rule (needing a student ID with a student ticket). You're right that that's what IU does. If that's all this was, then no problem. But hypothetically, a Michigan student wearing an Indiana shirt would be unacceptable? That just seems too...1984...for my tastes. Plus, if we didn't allow that, we would never get an aerial picture of a full Memorial Stadium, since they only take those when we play Ohio State so everyone is wearing red. Even half the student section wears Buckeye gear for those games. Here's to eternally hoping Hoosier football isn't such a doormat for much longer....

 

 

 

There's no group in the sense that not ALL of the students are in one section. It's confusing, because there is a large mass of students behind the left side basket, and on the nearside lower left level. That looks like our student section, because it's big enough to be one. But that's only a small percentage of all the student seats. The rest are up in the corners of the lower level where it seems the balcony is about the fall down on you, and then scattered all over the balcony itself.

 

The tickets do rotate every game. My freshman year (of my four years, that was by far our best team [the DJ White/Eric Gordon/Sampson's Debacle team]) I only had seats behind the basket or in that near lower level section for about 4-5 of the 15 or so home games. The rest were in random seats, or we didn't have tickets (that year, it was every student had tickets to every game except for two, which were randomly selected for each group of ticket holders). So yes, you don't have tickets to every game -- so, for the sake of this conversation let's say Assembly Hall has 10,000 students seats. There might be 12,000 student tickets, but 2,000 of them aren't there on any given night.

 

A quick Google search couldn't give me any specific numbers on the student section, but I know at least IU's are out there somewhere, and I assume other schools' are as well. I'll look more later.

 

EDIT: Looks like IU has 12,400 student tickets this year.

Wait. So you only have roughly 5k non-student tickets?

[Balta1701]

(farmteam @ Mar 11, 2013 -> 02:40 PM)

He should learn from the girl at ~1:44 of this video.

[RockRaines]

How much improvement are you looking for? I'm not suggesting there was monumental improvement, but I think there's more than you're admitting to.

Do you also believe he's well know as being one of the best player development coaches in the country? Because that was the statement he made.

[farmteam]

Wait. So you only have roughly 5k non-student tickets?

No. That's how many student tickets there are total; students don't have a ticket to every game, because there's too much demand. I'm not sure what the number of student allotted seats at every game is. I would believe anything between 7500-10000.

[Jenksismyhero]

How much improvement are you looking for? I'm not suggesting there was monumental improvement, but I think there's more than you're admitting to.

 

Didn't you guys want to see more growth out of Zeller? Didn't you want Watford to play better this year and not regress? Didn't you want Hulls to learn how to play defense for one game in 4 years at IU?

 

As an equal opportunity hater, i'm just as unimpressed with Groce's ability to coach. I think Henry is the only guy that got better as the season went along. Everyone else has maintained (Richardson, Griffey, Abrams, Egwu) or regressed (Paul, Bertrand).

 

[RockRaines]

No. That's how many student tickets there are total; students don't have a ticket to every game, because there's too much demand. I'm not sure what the number of student allotted seats at every game is. I would believe anything between 7500-10000.

But more than half each game? That's amazing.

[He_Gawn]

Nice retort.

 

Show me an example. Is Zeller better this year than last year? Hulls? Wafford? How about Yogi from the non conference to the conference season?

 

Crean's accomplishments have come from having a top 50 all time NBA player and 2 National Player of the Year nominees on the same team. If you're seriously suggesting it's because of his ability to coach em up, you have not been paying attention.

 

I'm not at all suggesting he can't coach - he's been a coach at two high level D1 schools, obviously he can to some degree. I'm just saying he's not known for his coaching and hasn't really shown the ability to out coach some of the other really good coaches in the league to this point.

 

Sorry, I didn't think you deserved a retort. If you can't see improvement, then you don't want to see it, period.

 

Oladipo went from nothing to POY candidate. Zellers numbers are up this year, finishes better with contact. Watford? Did you see him his freshman/sophomore years? Same with Hulls. You don't think Hulls has improved since he got here? LOL... Sheehey is one of the best 6th man in the conference. Yogi from the non-conference season to now? Have you watched IU? He runs the best offense in the country to perfection.

 

I mean, this argument is a moot point because you don't like Crean.

 

You can't turn every single player you recruit into an All-American (evidently like all the other coaches can, right?). Players peak, some early, some late. If you can't see that Indiana has gotten better since Crean arrived, you're helpless.