2012-2013 NCAA Basketball thread

[Dick Allen]

Jordan's percentages did go up from his Freshman to Junior year. From 53.5% to 55.1% and he went from 13.5 PPG to 20.0 and 19.6 (on less minutes and better %s than the 20 PPG season). There was a pretty drastic improvement there. I don't think that's the best example.

 

The whole thing about Crean being a better coach than other Big Ten coaches because he won the conference is silly. His roster is clearly more talented (which I know is part of being a coach) than every other roster in the B1G. Because Valpo won the horizon league in 2011-2012 does that mean Bryce Drew is a better coach than Brad Stevens? You'll probably say he was for that season, but come on, that's silly.

1.6% higher shooting percentage and 6 points a game without James Worthy around is drastic? Cody Zeller's shooting percentage went up 5.3% over last season.

 

I really wonder how Brad Stevens would do with a historically middle of the pack Big 10 team. I think people would be dissappointed. He has a great gig at Butler. I bet Todd Lickliter wishes he never left.

[ZoomSlowik]

1.6% higher shooting percentage and 6 points a game without James Worthy around is drastic? Cody Zeller's shooting percentage went up 5.3% over last season.

 

I really wonder how Brad Stevens would do with a historically middle of the pack Big 10 team. I think people would be dissappointed. He has a great gig at Butler. I bet Todd Lickliter wishes he never left.

 

Last I checked, 62>57.

[RockRaines]

1.6% higher shooting percentage and 6 points a game without James Worthy around is drastic? Cody Zeller's shooting percentage went up 5.3% over last season.

 

I really wonder how Brad Stevens would do with a historically middle of the pack Big 10 team. I think people would be dissappointed. He has a great gig at Butler. I bet Todd Lickliter wishes he never left.

Zeller was the preseason NPOY favorite and isnt even in the conversation. I would say that he had a disappointing year for what was expected.

[farmteam]

Zeller was the preseason NPOY favorite and isnt even in the conversation. I would say that he had a disappointing year for what was expected.

I do wonder how much NPOY discussion Zeller would be getting with even only a quarter of the preseason hype. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Zeller deserves to be NPOY. Just a lot of the negativity he gets was based on the fact that he didn't come out and blow everyone away.

[Dick Allen]

Zeller was the preseason NPOY favorite and isnt even in the conversation. I would say that he had a disappointing year for what was expected.

Team wins the Big Ten, is ranked #3 nationally and because Zeller isn't going to be POY, Crean is to blame?

[RockRaines]

Team wins the Big Ten, is ranked #3 nationally and because Zeller isn't going to be POY, Crean is to blame?

I honestly dont understand your point at all. Are you saying he didnt have a disappointing year considering the expectations? I think IU overall underachieved even with the regular season title.

[Balta1701]

I honestly dont understand your point at all. Are you saying he didnt have a disappointing year considering the expectations? I think IU overall underachieved even with the regular season title.

I mean, yeah, at some level, the Butler and Illinois losses shouldn't have happened, but man, that conference this season was absolutely grueling. There's a reason it almost came down to a 4 way tie, the #10 team in the conference could beat the #2 team on any given day.

[Dick Allen]

I honestly dont understand your point at all. Are you saying he didnt have a disappointing year considering the expectations? I think IU overall underachieved even with the regular season title.

Not really. The kid also had a target on his back. His presence made the other guys better, and he came up huge yesterday. The Big Ten was as competitive as ever this year. If a team wins the Big Ten and still underachieves, Crean's recruiting is beyond off the charts, and that probably is the most important aspect of a college coach. Big Ten basketball is going to be really good for a while, and if expansion nets them UNC, it's going to be sick.

[RockRaines]

I mean, yeah, at some level, the Butler and Illinois losses shouldn't have happened, but man, that conference this season was absolutely grueling. There's a reason it almost came down to a 4 way tie, the #10 team in the conference could beat the #2 team on any given day.

If you go back and look at my posts at the beginning of this thread I said exactly that from experience. But outside of IU being much improved the rest of the conference isnt all that much tougher if at all than last season. OSU is down compared to the Final Four team and yet will be the number 2 seed in the tourney, MSU is a little down and UM is very young. IU should have run away with this season if their talent level was really what was expected. Having a preseason NPOY and a guy who is in the running for it now should guarantee you a #1 seed and frankly should have made the title easy to win. After seeing them early in the season I expected a team much like my 10-11 buckeyes that had one or two stumbles but tore through everyone else. I was really surprised not to see that, especially late in the year.

 

Personally I think they were either really overrated to begin the year or they underachieved in some way.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think next year will be a far better test for whether Indiana is "back" or not. This year they had a loaded team with experience. Next year, not so much. I have no idea what to expect from their frontcourt; there are a number of highly rated recruits but who knows what to expect in terms of production. If they can contend for the title leaning on Ferrell, Sheehey and a bunch of lightly used underclassmen, that'll be a lot more impressive. I think they probably have a tournament team next year but need things to go their way to get a bye in the BTT.

Edited March 11, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[RockRaines]

Not really. The kid also had a target on his back. His presence made the other guys better, and he came up huge yesterday. The Big Ten was as competitive as ever this year. If a team wins the Big Ten and still underachieves, Crean's recruiting is beyond off the charts, and that probably is the most important aspect of a college coach. Big Ten basketball is going to be really good for a while, and if expansion nets them UNC, it's going to be sick.

Ok, I understand it now. You think he performed just fine. Maybe its me just remembering all the heat Sullinger took for his sophomore season and how it was a step back even though he outproduced Zeller. Maybe in both cases the expectations were unachievable.

[RockRaines]

I think next year will be a far better test for whether Indiana is "back" or not. This year they had a loaded team with experience. Next year, not so much. I have no idea what to expect from their frontcourt; there are a number of highly rated recruits but who knows what to expect in terms of production. If they can contend for the title leaning on Ferrell, Sheehey and a bunch of underclassmen, that'll be a lot more impressive. I think they probably have a tournament team next year but need things to go there way to get a bye in the BTT.

Recruits are such a crapshoot too. I know this very firsthand. You have to hope they develop, stay, and produce. All three need to happen to keep a program at the top.

[farmteam]

If you go back and look at my posts at the beginning of this thread I said exactly that from experience. But outside of IU being much improved the rest of the conference isnt all that much tougher if at all than last season. OSU is down compared to the Final Four team and yet will be the number 2 seed in the tourney, MSU is a little down and UM is very young. IU should have run away with this season if their talent level was really what was expected. Having a preseason NPOY and a guy who is in the running for it now should guarantee you a #1 seed and frankly should have made the title easy to win. After seeing them early in the season I expected a team much like my 10-11 buckeyes that had one or two stumbles but tore through everyone else. I was really surprised not to see that, especially late in the year.

 

Personally I think they were either really overrated to begin the year or they underachieved in some way.

The problem is they can do it when they want to, they're just not consistent. They way they played in Columbus? Fantastic. I wish they could play a half court game like that all the time.

 

I really do think that Indiana at its best is better than any other team at its best this year. The problem is doing it for 6 games straight.

[Rex Hudler]

So You are ok with his actions yesterday? As far as Meyer being "central" or "at fault", IU hired Kelvin Sampson, whoever hired him ruined the program.

 

Honestly, I could care less about what he did yesterday. In a perfect world, he handles himself better, just as he has already stated. But none of us know the whole, true back story. It happened. Two guys had a beef. It doesn't change the way I sleep at night, nor affect my way of thinking either way. Athletes and coaches compete. They get caught up in the heat of the battle. Things are done and said that shouldn't be. But in the end, its a small blip on the radar and doesn't affect much. I actually find it comical that everyone is focusing so much on it and acting as if it is the only time a coach has ever had a beef with another.

[RockRaines]

The problem is they can do it when they want to, they're just not consistent. They way they played in Columbus? Fantastic. I wish they could play a half court game like that all the time.

 

I really do think that Indiana at its best is better than any other team at its best this year. The problem is doing it for 6 games straight.

Do you think its mostly defensively where that hole is? It seemed to me like that was the issue these last few games especially at the guard spot. If Oladipo doesnt completely overwhelm Burke yesterday UM probably wins that game.

[Rex Hudler]

See, I would argue that he hasn't really made any of his players better, he just simply has better players. Zeller hasn't gotten much better in his two years. He still has the same good skills, as well as the same weaknesses to his game. Oladipo made the jump, but I think everyone would agree that was sort of an unexpected fluke. It's not like his basketball "skills" have increased, he just gives 110% Derrick Rose style effort and has a knack for making critical plays at critical times in the game. I guess that can be Crean influencing his basketball IQ, but I dunno, he's still not some guy you want dribbling the ball needing a basket. He's the perfect glue guy, not the go-to-guy.

 

Hulls/Watford/Sheehey do what they've always done at IU - shoot the ball. If they aren't hitting their shots they don't impact the game that much.

 

 

That post tells me you know next to nothing about basketball. Without dissecting the whole thing, to say that Zeller has not improved and Oladipo's "skills" have increased is laughable.

[Rex Hudler]

Hulls you have a point, but Sheehey does way more than shoot the ball. He's been cold lately, I'll grant you that, but Sheehey's at his best when he's not just shooting the ball.

 

But again, I think it's shortchanging Crean to say "he just simply has better players" as if they showed up out of the blue in Bloomington, no thanks to him or his staff. However, I think that "coaching" and "recruiting" are not as easily separated as the conventional wisdom seems to think they are.

 

EDIT: Rereading your post, I think you're doing a disservice to Oladipo too. He does give Derrick Rose style effort, but his "skills" have also definitely improved year-over-year. Shooting and ball handling mostly.

 

 

Hulls has improved by leaps and bounds every year he has been at IU. Because he is a great shooter that's all he gets credit for. This team is better because the players work hard, they are more experienced and they are better players across the board. Period. Whether that puts Coach Crean as one of the "best developers of talent" as HE_Gawn said, I don't know. I don't think anyone on this board sees enough basketball, including practices, to tell which coaches are the best at it. Most will look at one or two players on a team and judge it from that, which is an incomplete picture.

[RockRaines]

Hulls has improved by leaps and bounds every year he has been at IU. Because he is a great shooter that's all he gets credit for. This team is better because the players work hard, they are more experienced and they are better players across the board. Period. Whether that puts Coach Crean as one of the "best developers of talent" as HE_Gawn said, I don't know. I don't think anyone on this board sees enough basketball, including practices, to tell which coaches are the best at it. Most will look at one or two players on a team and judge it from that, which is an incomplete picture.

I'll tell you right now Matta is not a great "developer" however he surrounds himself with coaches that are. His talents are recruiting, schemes and motivation. The program in general has been pretty good at it overall though attrition has hurt it a bit these last few years. His staff turned a player like Terrence Dials into an all conference guy. That alone shows alot.

 

I think Izzo develops his players.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by RockRaines

[Balta1701]

I think Izzo develops his players.

I think Izzo gets his players ready for tournament competition better than any coach I can think of.

[Rex Hudler]

If you don't think I want them to "go win this f***ing thing" you're crazy. I bought $600 worth of tickets for the Indy Regional in October! But I also had delusions of an undefeated season at one point. And while this team has lost games I thought they should win, it just proves to me how tough it really is. The best coaches in the game who coached 30+ years have won the title no more than a handful of times. To look at IU and say it is a failure if they don't win it all is ridiculous. This team has been enjoyable to watch and regardless of how this turns out, that won't change. Will I be disappointed with an early exit, hell yes. But there are other good teams and all I have ever wanted for IU is to be one of them and to have a shot. Winning the whole thing is gravy and something to be celebrated, but not something to denigrate a team over. I sure as hell hope you don't remember your 2005 Illini that way! If so, that's very sad.

 

And this whole "it's IU, you knew they weren't going to be down for long" is a bunch of crap. All people have been spewing on here for the last several years is how IU is no longer a top program and that they haven't done anything in 25 years, blah blah blah. Now you're going to tell me we should have all known it was coming?

 

I'm sorry, but I get irritated when people sit on their couches and judge others without knowing the full story. I could care less whether you think Coach Crean is an a**hole, a great guy, an embarassment, or anything else. What you or anyone else thinks about "my" team means nothing to me. So forgive me if I have an opinion that doesn't jive with the masses that want to plaster something on TV and talk about how bad it is. Screw that. Coaches have beefs with each other. Should he have handled things differently, sure. But it's OVER. Why should anyone care? As soon at the first ball is thrown into the air Thursday, no one else will talk about it.

 

Crean, at best, is a very weird guy. You could call him a lot of other things. It's no surprise he seems generally hated by many. There's definitely something amiss about him. That creepy smile after that exchange yesterday was ridiculous.

 

Yesterday was an embarrassment. Cmon Rex. "So what, move on?" You just won the BTT, go jump around with your team or something. Instead, let's take the focus off that and go call someone out in the middle of the floor and on national TV. Please don't tell me that he didn't know a camera would be on him, either. Post game cameras are always on the coach, especially the winning coach.

 

This whole "we're back" thing is getting tiresome. Again, it's IU, you knew they weren't going to be down for long. In college bball, you need a few good recruits and you can turn it around in a minute. They got Zeller, etc...and they are where they are. This isn't a miracle for IU to be good again.

 

Any IU fan that is satisfied with this season, regardless of what happens in the tournament, is setting the bar much lower than any IU fan should. If they don't make the FF, I would guess most fans with high expectations won't look back years from now on 12-13 and say "OMG remember that awesome team, what a year." They'll remember that they didn't finish the job, when they have arguably the best team/most talent in the country. This is the same team that played with Kentucky last year, basically went with them blow for blow, and there's not Kentucky this year. This could be the best chance IU has at a FF/title for the next 10 years, who knows.

 

Seems that IU fans could be setting themselves up to be "OK" with an earlier than expected tournament loss. If you are going to be Indiana, and you want to play the banner pointing game, then play that card to the max. Expect championships and don't be satisfied by this drawn out "we're back" thing.

 

Sorry Rex I just see you coming on here if they lose in the sweet 16 and saying "Disappointed they lost, but what a great season." I like Balta's attitude yesterday of "go win this f***ing thing."

 

[Rex Hudler]

I haven't looked at the stats at all. I've watched a lot of big ten games and I talk to my indiana friends who agree with me. As to Watford, he was terrible for the majority of the year. It's not that he didn't get the number of shots, it's that he sucked and never fit into the flow of the game. That's regression in my book.

 

Look, I get it. You don't want people talking bad about your coach/program. But i'm not the first or last person to question Crean's coaching ability.

 

 

It's more someone talking about about the coach/program who shows some accuracy in what they say is what we're looking for. The stuff you are spewing is so off base it's not worth arguing. Make an argument with some solid facts and I'll be happy to listen. Or better yet, how about posting your basketball coaching resume and enlighten us with what you know about the game. Certainly in your posts today, I haven't read much at all.

[Rex Hudler]

That's the problem with numbers. They don't always tell the story. For Cody to have done the same thing as last year would have been a big improvement just based on how teams defended him. But by looking at the numbers, you'll miss that Cody has become a better passer, he has extended his range in a big way and he's a better defender. Cody doesn't care how much he scores if the team wins.

 

Watford has rebounded much better this year and been more consistent. He has struggled in the last few games, but he has been solid all year long as a 3rd or 4th option on this team.

 

Hulls has improved light years in the past two years. He is actually a very good off the ball defender and has improved greatly on the ball despite physical limitations. Hulls handles the ball and passes much, much better than even last year. When Hulls arrived, he was simply a catch and shoot 3 pt shooter. His release has gotten much quicker. He makes shots off the dribble, and off shot fakes moving inside the 3 pt line. To say he hasn't improved greatly is assinine.

 

Sheehey is a very good all-around player and defender. Stats don't tell half of what he does on the floor.

 

Teams have assistant coaches too. The Head Coach isn't responsible for the improvement of every player in any program more than motivating that player to work hard, improve their basketball IQ and choosing the right assistants to work with these guys every day. I'm not making this argument to say Crean is Top X, just to defend the fact these guys have gotten much better. Oladipo is a perfect example. His work ethic is as much responsible for anything, but don't you think it is the coach's job to cultivate that and give the player the tools to make himself better? I get the feeling that you think the Head Coach is having two hour individual sessions with each player every day. That doesn't happen anywhere.

 

A lot of those are terrible examples. Oladipo okay, the rest haven't exactly made the leap.

 

Zeller averaged about 16-7 on 62% shooting as a freshman. This year he's averaging 17-8 on 57% shooting. WOW, HUGE difference! One of the main strikes against his draft stock is that scouts don't think he improved his game much.

 

Watford's numbers have been fairly consistent since his freshman year.

 

Sr- 12-6, 43/82/48 shooting

Jr- 13-6, 42/81/44 shooting

So- 16-5, 42/84/38 shooting

Fr- 12-6, 38/80/32 shooting

 

Basically his 3-point shooting got better. Improved, but not exactly off the charts.

 

You can do the same thing with Hulls. He got more minutes and his shooting percentage went up from his freshman to sophomore years, but other than that his numbers have been virtually identical.

 

Sheehey, it's really hard to say how much he's improved the last few years given he's still a role player. He's solid, but doesn't strike me as a potential All-Conference guy with more PT.

 

Ferrell, way too early to say he's made massive improvements. He's still putting up single-digit point games a lot and isn't exactly putting up 7 assists a game. I suspect he'll be very good next year, but that'll have a lot to do with an increased role.

 

I wouldn't put those types of developments anywhere close to what Bo Ryan does on a regular basis at Wisconsin. You can't say I'm biased either, as a Northwestern fan I only hate God.

 

[Rex Hudler]

I honestly dont understand your point at all. Are you saying he didnt have a disappointing year considering the expectations? I think IU overall underachieved even with the regular season title.

 

What were your expectations of IU this year? I predicted them to lose 4 games. They lost 5. I'm a homer! Opposing teams not named Indiana this year went a combined 49-1 @ Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State. Indiana went 3-0. The knock on IU was they couldn't win on the road. They went 7-2 on the road in the best conference in the country. They went 6-1 and teams ranked in the Top 10 of the final AP poll. They won the best league in the country outright.

 

Did you really have us on par with the '76 team or are you selectively tossing around words like "disappointing" and expectations"? Seriously, what was your preseason prediction?

 

IU guys on here, were you disappointed in this year to this point?

 

 

[RockRaines]

I dont see the "Hulls is a good defender" point at all. I see him as one of their largest weaknesses on defense. Hulls and Yogi make them incredibly vulnerable to teams with good physical guard play.

[RockRaines]

What were your expectations of IU this year? I predicted them to lose 4 games. They lost 5. I'm a homer! Opposing teams not named Indiana this year went a combined 49-1 @ Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State. Indiana went 3-0. The knock on IU was they couldn't win on the road. They went 7-2 on the road in the best conference in the country. They went 6-1 and teams ranked in the Top 10 of the final AP poll. They won the best league in the country outright.

 

Did you really have us on par with the '76 team or are you selectively tossing around words like "disappointing" and expectations"? Seriously, what was your preseason prediction?

 

IU guys on here, were you disappointed in this year to this point?

My preseason prediction was exactly what happened if you go back and look at it. I would say most experts and IU fans had them losing 1 maybe 2 games in conference just like some of the more recent dominant B10 teams did.

 

 

I dont get your 49-1 point though, is that backwards?

 

 

Hey, at least we beat all other 11 teams in conference play though!