2012 White Sox Catch-All thread

[Marty34]

Rios is a prototypical 3rd hitter

 

Doesn't get on base enough. I'd rather have Quentin hit 3.

[knightni]

For his salary, Quentin is not worth his output compared to Viciedo.

 

Viciedo is going to be much better than Quentin in the long term. Similar to Carlos Lee.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

What was so fantastic about it? Trading Quentin was a bad move.

I don't know how you can say it was a bad move without taking into consideration all the other moves made ,all the time he missed and the salary saved. Everything is related and unless you can say how you would have saved salary , accounted for the time lost and other moves that you would 've made saying that single move was bad is tunnel vision. With the team competing very well I doubt your plan if you had one would've produced better results.

[greg775]

Doesn't get on base enough. I'd rather have Quentin hit 3.

 

This is a good year for me on here. People have been praising a lot of Sox I stood up for in the past on here: Quentin, D. Wise all have been getting plenty of love. How bout some love for Pods now?

[Balta1701]

This is a good year for me on here. People have been praising a lot of Sox I stood up for in the past on here: Quentin, D. Wise all have been getting plenty of love. How bout some love for Pods now?

Marty's been pulling this schtick all year Greg.

[Marty34]

I don't know how you can say it was a bad move without taking into consideration all the other moves made ,all the time he missed and the salary saved. Everything is related and unless you can say how you would have saved salary , accounted for the time lost and other moves that you would 've made saying that single move was bad is tunnel vision. With the team competing very well I doubt your plan if you had one would've produced better results.

 

a 1y/$7M deal would have been more than affordable for the Sox. Thing is, KW gambled that Viciedo would out produce Quentin this year and he was wrong. Could cost the Sox a postseason appearance.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

a 1y/$7M deal would have been more than affordable for the Sox. Thing is, KW gambled that Viciedo would out produce Quentin this year and he was wrong. Could cost the Sox a postseason appearance.

Still tunnel vision . Sox must've made 50+ moves based on salary MaL and MiL personnel and possible future moves. Until you come up with something similar and you really can't because we have no idea if those moves would ve been accepted you can't cry about one move costing anything. Not only that you're assuming Q would've had similiar production against different competition. Look at all the quality players the Dodgers have added and all the salary. Still doesn't guarantee a thing.

[Kyyle23]

Quentin: .262/.371/.502 in 77 games

Viciedo: .239/.282/.371 in his last 77 games

 

So an .873 OPS for Quentin in the toughest hitters park in MLB versus a .653 for Viciedo over that same time. Huge difference.

 

I looked at Quentin's last years stats vs viciedos current stats.

 

 

And nice of you to only use viciedos last 77 games vs his entire season. It is worth noting that Quentin started this season like a house on fire and totally fell off to his current numbers.

 

Bottom line is Quentin is not reliable whatsoever

[caulfield12]

But Viciedo has been better in the last 20 games, lol.

 

We can play this game all night long...

[YASNY]

I'll take a younger up and coming Viciedo over an older and always breaking down Quentin at any time. If you consider that we were not to supposed to be anywhere near as good as we have been, dumping Q and giving V the opportunity was the right move.

 

[southsider2k5]

77 games, what's your point?

 

You can't ignore the other half of the season where he wouldn't play.

[southsider2k5]

a 1y/$7M deal would have been more than affordable for the Sox. Thing is, KW gambled that Viciedo would out produce Quentin this year and he was wrong. Could cost the Sox a postseason appearance.

 

Seeing as Quentin has missed 50 games this year, to say that Quentin has outproduced Dayan just isn't true. He may have out OPS'd him, but Viciedo has also played in 125 games, to Q's now 78. Dayan has more Homers, more RBI's, and a similar batting average, not to mention he didn't need replacing for almost half of the season.

 

We saw how the off season went. Cutting salary was the mandate. Signing Carlos to a seven million dollar deal would have meant someone else had to go. The closest player in salary to TCQ is AJ. How would 2012 really look if we had to trade AJ to make Carlos fit? You can't just pull a number out of the air and pretend it doesn't have any consequences. Keeping one salary means dealing another.

[caulfield12]

Of course, Marty will say we should have traded Matt Thornton and not re-signed John Danks.

Edited September 6, 2012 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Of course, Marty will say we should have traded Matt Thornton and not re-signed John Danks.

Actually, the trading Matt Thornton thing...well, he hasn't been lights out this season has he?

[southsider2k5]

Of course, Marty will say we should have traded Matt Thornton and not re-signed John Danks.

 

So what was the market for Matt Thornton this off season?

[Eminor3rd]

CQ was not an option this year. KW had to cut a ton of salary, whether you wanted him to or not. Under that directive, there's no way you can argue that there were better ways to do that than dropping CQ.

[southsider2k5]

CQ was not an option this year. KW had to cut a ton of salary, whether you wanted him to or not. Under that directive, there's no way you can argue that there were better ways to do that than dropping CQ.

 

Especially because you had his replacement already on your roster. The only other player in that price range you could have said that about in the off-season was AJ, and even that was iffy.

[Steve9347]

Of course, Marty will say we should have traded Matt Thornton and not re-signed John Danks.

Both of these would be wonderful things.

[kevo880]

Both of these would be wonderful things.

 

That's easy to say about Danks with how good Sale has been, and until recently Quintana. And even Hector Santiago. If they hadn't stepped up from the left side then we would be missing Danks a lot more.

[kitekrazy]

So what was the market for Matt Thornton this off season?

 

It wasn't good last year either. People thought they could trade him for Rasmus but the Cards wanted Sale.

 

[Marty34]

I remember hearing last year that Thornton's deal wouldn't prevent him from being moved. I think we'll be looking at the same problem with Ramirez this time next year.

 

Anyway, for all the kudos KW has gotten for Quintana and the rookies on the staff, the Quentin deal was a talent evaluation mistake, and a not too small one at that given where the Sox are currently. There's no doubt in my mind that if the front office thought he was going to put up the numbers he has with the Padres, he'd still be here at $7M. Actually would have cost them $6M because there'd be no need to sign Fukudome and you could still have Viciedo.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Marty34

[caulfield12]

You're...

 

1) Deliberately ignoring all the time he has missed this season...who would have played his position, Viciedo? Danks? Fukudome? You're severely UNDERESTIMATING the negative impact it would have on Dayan's development to just jerk him around between AAA and the majors, from position to position, you just don't do that to your premiere upper levels hitting prospect. Who's to say that Dayan wouldn't have been hitting great the first two months and then you would have just benched him? If you can imagine Quentin putting up the same numbers for the ENTIRE season without being injured, well, we might as well pretend Dayan was lighting up the majors like he was hitting in Charlotte in May/June 2011.

 

2) Danks, Ohman, Thornton and Crain...those salary dollars have hurt us a lot more than Dayan, Beckham or even Morel...because we found YOUK to replace Brent, for one thing.

 

3) You keep overestimating Ramirez's trade value or seriously underestimating how important he is to the White Sox, or both.

 

By your logic, we should be trading Konerko, Dunn and Rios as well this offseason, right? Especially Dunn and Rios.

 

Let's say we had to trade AJ's salary in order to keep Quentin on the roster. That's a legitimate possibility. Obviously, Tyler Flowers wasn't going to put up those same numbers, so no matter what you argue about Carlos vs. Dayan, Flowers vs. AJ is going to undercut ANY benefit you might have gotten from getting Viciedo out of the line-up.

 

Finally, when you do have a lower cost player that you've spent 3+ years developing in Viciedo, it makes ZERO sense to hold on to the much more expensive player...because for the 100th time, Quentin CAN NEVER STAY HEALTHY.

 

If you could guarantee CQ was going to put up 2008 first five month numbers for the remainder of a 3-4 year contract, I'd say sign him tomorrow for $20 million per season. But we all know that's not the player we would get.

 

It's another version on a smaller scale of the problem every team considering Josh Hamilton would have...CQ, because of injuries and streakiness, Hamilton because of his off-field issues, health and age.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

It wasn't good last year either. People thought they could trade him for Rasmus but the Cards wanted Sale.

The Sox could have traded for Rasmus using Edwin Jackson. They didn't want Rasmus, and really, although earlier this year he had a hot streak and hit some homers, he's been pretty bad for the Blue Jays.

[Balta1701]

The Sox could have traded for Rasmus using Edwin Jackson. They didn't want Rasmus, and really, although earlier this year he had a hot streak and hit some homers, he's been pretty bad for the Blue Jays.

Really? I thought he'd been pretty good overall.

 

(Getting rid of Teahen was the other bonus, and Stewart turned into Youk, those are the 2 other details.)

[Marty34]

You're...

 

1) Deliberately ignoring all the time he has missed this season...who would have played his position, Viciedo? Danks? Fukudome? You're severely UNDERESTIMATING the negative impact it would have on Dayan's development to just jerk him around between AAA and the majors, from position to position, you just don't do that to your premiere upper levels hitting prospect. Who's to say that Dayan wouldn't have been hitting great the first two months and then you would have just benched him? If you can imagine Quentin putting up the same numbers for the ENTIRE season without being injured, well, we might as well pretend Dayan was lighting up the majors like he was hitting in Charlotte in May/June 2011.

 

2) Danks, Ohman, Thornton and Crain...those salary dollars have hurt us a lot more than Dayan, Beckham or even Morel...because we found YOUK to replace Brent, for one thing.

 

3) You keep overestimating Ramirez's trade value or seriously underestimating how important he is to the White Sox, or both.

 

By your logic, we should be trading Konerko, Dunn and Rios as well this offseason, right? Especially Dunn and Rios.

 

Let's say we had to trade AJ's salary in order to keep Quentin on the roster. That's a legitimate possibility. Obviously, Tyler Flowers wasn't going to put up those same numbers, so no matter what you argue about Carlos vs. Dayan, Flowers vs. AJ is going to undercut ANY benefit you might have gotten from getting Viciedo out of the line-up.

 

Finally, when you do have a lower cost player that you've spent 3+ years developing in Viciedo, it makes ZERO sense to hold on to the much more expensive player...because for the 100th time, Quentin CAN NEVER STAY HEALTHY.

 

If you could guarantee CQ was going to put up 2008 first five month numbers for the remainder of a 3-4 year contract, I'd say sign him tomorrow for $20 million per season. But we all know that's not the player we would get.

 

It's another version on a smaller scale of the problem every team considering Josh Hamilton would have...CQ, because of injuries and streakiness, Hamilton because of his off-field issues, health and age.

 

It's only my opinion.