Addressing the Offensive Short Comings

[Lillian]

 

 

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree about Jackson's strength, especially versus LHP. Yes it's true that he draws a lot of walks, but there is much more to his offensive game.

 

If you examine his split stats versus LHP, for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008, when he was just 24 to 26 years old, you'll note that he not only had a terrific average and OBP, but he also hit a lot of doubles and even a few homers.

Here are his stats vs LHP, in the last two of those years, projected over a 162 game season:

 

2007 36 2B 4 3B 17 HR 96 RBI .320 AVG .408 OBP .549 SLG .958 OPS

2008 46 2B 3 3B 11 HR 66 RBI .315 AVG .446 OBP .492 SLG .938 OPS

 

The guy can clearly hit lefties!!!

I suspect that he'd hit a few more home runs in our ballpark.

 

He'll turn just 30 next month. He's still in his prime, and I see no reason to not expect him to get back to where he was, now that he's healthy. Wouldn't you take those numbers sandwiched between Konerko and Viciedo, versus lefties?

I'd much prefer that to the hole in the lineup that Dunn represents vs. lefties.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Lillian

[Lillian]

Another reason why the Sox could benefit from platooning a few guys is that there isn't a single switch hitter, with the exception of Escobar, and I don't expect him to be on the Big League club, once Jackson demonstrates that he's back.

[Dick Allen]

How come the new hitting coach isn't getting any grief? In previous years, it was all the old hitting coach's fault.

[Cali]

I'm actually kinda serious. As we learned from the Marlins debacle, most MLB teams have more money then they're willing to disclose publicly. Obviously the Sox intend on paying Rios his $$$ for the rest of his contract. There's no doubt in my mind that the Sox could spare another 500K (or whatever league minimun is) to call up a Jordan Danks, or Tyler Kuhn etc. if they were to give Rios his release due to performance issues.

 

You know a trade will net you nothing and you're gonna have to pay most of his salary anyway, just let him go if he continues to suck (haha, yeah, if...) I know I'm not at all an expert of MLB finances, but there has got to be a scenario where this is somewhat possible. The only thing keeping it from happening is either foolish pride on KW's part or just a blind faith that somehow Rios will become a productive major leaguer in a Sox uniform.

[Lillian]

I'm actually kinda serious. As we learned from the Marlins debacle, most MLB teams have more money then they're willing to disclose publicly. Obviously the Sox intend on paying Rios his $$$ for the rest of his contract. There's no doubt in my mind that the Sox could spare another 500K (or whatever league minimun is) to call up a Jordan Danks, or Tyler Kuhn etc. if they were to give Rios his release due to performance issues.

 

You know a trade will net you nothing and you're gonna have to pay most of his salary anyway, just let him go if he continues to suck (haha, yeah, if...) I know I'm not at all an expert of MLB finances, but there has got to be a scenario where this is somewhat possible. The only thing keeping it from happening is either foolish pride on KW's part or just a blind faith that somehow Rios will become a productive major leaguer in a Sox uniform.

 

I agree with you. However, if the objective is to clear a roster spot on the 25 man club, why couldn't they send him to Charlotte?

Boy, that would really infuriate Rios. Who knows, maybe it would lite a fire under him. He is clearly an underachiever.

If he played well at Charlotte, perhaps someone would want to take him off our hands. If the risk is that he would have to clear waivers, in order to go to AAA, so be it. If a team wanted to claim him off waivers, I'd be thrilled, and I suspect a lot of other Sox people would be, as well.

 

Am I missing something here?

[lasttriptotulsa]

I agree with you. However, if the objective is to clear a roster spot on the 25 man club, why couldn't they send him to Charlotte?

Boy, that would really infuriate Rios. Who knows, maybe it would lite a fire under him. He is clearly an underachiever.

If he played well at Charlotte, perhaps someone would want to take him off our hands. If the risk is that he would have to clear waivers, in order to go to AAA, so be it. If a team wanted to claim him off waivers, I'd be thrilled, and I suspect a lot of other Sox people would be, as well.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

You can't send vets to the minors without their consent. I believe its if they have 5 years experience.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Eduardo Escobar has a CAREER OPS of 666 in the minor leagues.

 

Can you think of any player in recent history who has come up with an OPS number of under 700 in the minors and been better than a replacement level player offensively? It just doesn't happen.

 

And then we're going to hit him 2nd? It's just like giving the most plate appearances on the team to Juan Pierre.

 

We can't count on Escobar solely based on a great spring training and 2 hits in 7 AB's early in 2012.

 

It's almost like making Corky Miller the everyday catcher based on his first 10-15 ab's when he was with us...you have to look at his background and record of performance over the last 3-4-5 years.

I just listed Escobar as a possibility , a shot in the dark so to speak. We can still develop and compete. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. He's a switch hitter , makes good contact ,can hit opposite field well and runs fairly well. I like his bat control. Most would have listed him as a long shot to even make the team based on his " track record". If Beckham and even Morel continue to struggle Escobar deserves more time.

[southsider2k5]

Give Rios his unconditional release and eat the contract haha. Platoon Fukudome and Lillibridge. No doubt they'd be able to match his production combined.

 

Not gonna happen. It is a waste of time to even dream about it. We have at least two more years before that is a realistic idea.

[Balta1701]

You can't send vets to the minors without their consent. I believe its if they have 5 years experience.

In order to send Rios to the minors, The Sox would have to effectively waive him and then have Rios choose to accept the assignment. If Rios were to decline that assignment and request to be granted free agency, then the Sox would be on the hook for his entire contract and wouldn't even have Rios to kick around any more. Trying to send him to the minors is effectively buying out his entire contract and being done with him completely.

[Balta1701]

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree about Jackson's strength, especially versus LHP. Yes it's true that he draws a lot of walks, but there is much more to his offensive game.

 

If you examine his split stats versus LHP, for the years 2006, 2007 and 2008, when he was just 24 to 26 years old, you'll note that he not only had a terrific average and OBP, but he also hit a lot of doubles and even a few homers.

Here are his stats vs LHP, in the last two of those years, projected over a 162 game season:

 

2007 36 2B 4 3B 17 HR 96 RBI .320 AVG .408 OBP .549 SLG .958 OPS

2008 46 2B 3 3B 11 HR 66 RBI .315 AVG .446 OBP .492 SLG .938 OPS

 

The guy can clearly hit lefties!!!

I suspect that he'd hit a few more home runs in our ballpark.

 

He'll turn just 30 next month. He's still in his prime, and I see no reason to not expect him to get back to where he was, now that he's healthy. Wouldn't you take those numbers sandwiched between Konerko and Viciedo, versus lefties?

I'd much prefer that to the hole in the lineup that Dunn represents vs. lefties.

If everything comes true then sure.

 

I'm going to ask myself what's more likely though...Conor Jackson suddenly recovering where he was 3+ years ago after some serious health issues, when you prediction a few weeks ago that he'd immediately start destroying AAA has not come true...

 

or guys like Morel and Beckham finally developing while Dunn returns to putting up a .750-ish OPS against lefties.

 

I'll take the latter, if I had to bet. Conor Jackson returning to form is not a good bet. If he catches fire for 2 months+, then we'll talk. He's played 2 weeks and he has not done so.

[Cali]

So basically we need like, an arrest warrant or some kind of racist rant from Rios to get him to be released. I think he's too lazy to pull either off....

[southsider2k5]

So basically we need like, an arrest warrant or some kind of racist rant from Rios to get him to be released. I think he's too lazy to pull either off....

 

Pretty much.

[Reddy]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is insane after only 8 games and us winning FIVE of them!?

 

we are 11th in the league in OPS. I'll grant you, we need to score more runs, but it's been EIGHT FRIGGIN GAMES!

 

EDIT: by league, I do mean, all of MLB.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Reddy

[Balta1701]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is insane after only 8 games and us winning FIVE of them!?

 

we are 11th in the league in OPS. I'll grant you, we need to score more runs, but it's been EIGHT FRIGGIN GAMES!

 

EDIT: by league, I do mean, all of MLB.

There's a couple guys who are clearly struggling and are in important spots...so it is a valid question how long we let them struggle while keeping guys who are hitting like Viciedo lower in the order. I'm of the mind to be patient with those guys, to see if they can come around in a couple weeks...we endured multi-month slumps from Konerko and still wound up with good seasons before...but there is going to be a point where some of these guys have a reckoning if they can't find a groove.

 

That said, the poster who started this thread has been a huge fan of Conor Jackson since we signed him and apparently is going to keep pushing him regardless of whether he's performing well enough at AAA to earn a callup. He's currently...not.

[southsider2k5]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is insane after only 8 games and us winning FIVE of them!?

 

we are 11th in the league in OPS. I'll grant you, we need to score more runs, but it's been EIGHT FRIGGIN GAMES!

 

EDIT: by league, I do mean, all of MLB.

 

Not to mention we are 11th and I don't think it is too far from unrealistic to say we are about where we should be. For every player that is up over their norms, there is another who is under. Those things will come into balance. PK isn't going to hit .400 for the rest of the year, but Morel isn't going to hit .100 either.

[Lillian]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is insane after only 8 games and us winning FIVE of them!?

 

we are 11th in the league in OPS. I'll grant you, we need to score more runs, but it's been EIGHT FRIGGIN GAMES!

 

EDIT: by league, I do mean, all of MLB.

 

I don't think that any of us are panicing. However, it is clear that the 2012 White Sox are not going to be one of the premiere offensive teams in the League.

When you look at teams like the Rangers, Yankees and Tigers, it's not hard to understand why we would be searching for ways to improve the offense.

That was the intent of this thread. It doesn't hurt to consider some changes, does it?

[caulfield12]

We're also first in the American League in strikeouts.

 

In a hitter's park, if you're not going to hit 15-25 homers per season (like a Uribe or Crede), you can't strike out 10 times already.

 

See Beckham. See Morel.

 

We've struck out 70 times, or 8.75 outs per game. Around 1/3rd of our outs have been K's. Obviously, that's not a sustainable ratio.

 

White Sox=8.75 per game

TB=8.0 per game

Oakland=7.6 per game (hello Yoenis)

LAA=7.56 per game

BAL/BOS/TOR=7.44 per game

Seattle=6.8 per game

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

Of course...at this point in the season, it's worth questioning the type of pitchers the Sox have faced. The Sox have faced the Rangers and Tigers pitching staffs...Detroit is #2 in the AL in strikeouts and the Rangers are #4. Of course, they're also up high in strikeouts because they faced the Sox, but Texas also played the Mariners and you'll note the Mariners appear on your list, and the Tigers also faced Boston and Tampa Bay, both of whom also...appear on your list.

 

It's difficult to say with complete clarity, but outside of 2 games in Cleveland, the Sox have faced some pitching staffs who can strike you out. The Sox also got a game against Masterson, who is averaging 8.3 K/9, so that's not exactly letting up either.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think that any of us are panicing. However, it is clear that the 2012 White Sox are not going to be one of the premiere offensive teams in the League.

When you look at teams like the Rangers, Yankees and Tigers, it's not hard to understand why we would be searching for ways to improve the offense.

That was the intent of this thread. It doesn't hurt to consider some changes, does it?

 

We also have to protect the pitching staff, which is why the team slants more towards defense versus offense.

[caulfield12]

Of course...at this point in the season, it's worth questioning the type of pitchers the Sox have faced. The Sox have faced the Rangers and Tigers pitching staffs...Detroit is #2 in the AL in strikeouts and the Rangers are #4. Of course, they're also up high in strikeouts because they faced the Sox, but Texas also played the Mariners and you'll note the Mariners appear on your list, and the Tigers also faced Boston and Tampa Bay, both of whom also...appear on your list.

 

It's difficult to say with complete clarity, but outside of 2 games in Cleveland, the Sox have faced some pitching staffs who can strike you out. The Sox also got a game against Masterson, who is averaging 8.3 K/9, so that's not exactly letting up either.

 

Probably need at least 40, maybe 54 games (Hawk's famous 1/3rd mark of the season) to really know what we've got offensively.

 

If anyone would have been told we were 5-3 at this point in the season and 1/2 game out of first place, they would have been "pleased as punch."

 

Except for maybe mcgrad, marty34, ozzie and cowley. Even Marty34 surreptitiously seems like he's happy with the Sox level of play, but it's hard to trust!!

 

 

We also have to protect the pitching staff, which is why the team slants more towards defense versus offense.

Hence, Beckham and Morel, and another reason why you start see more and more of Flowers as the season wears on...granted, AJ looks absolutely great so far.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2012 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Probably need at least 40, maybe 54 games (Hawk's famous 1/3rd mark of the season) to really know what we've got offensively.

If Viciedo continues hitting and Morel and Beckham continue not hitting, then I would be content with shuffling people around in the lineup before then, but yeah, Memorial day is about the time when it's more reasonable to start considering roster moves or seriously thinking about moving people to the bench if they're not turning it around.

 

Some of those decisions, of course, should also be informed by the hitting coach. If they think Morel is in a good spot despite the strikeouts, and want to keep him in the #2 slot despite the strikeouts (Because he has shown some authority driving the ball to right center, for example), then that's their call too.

[TaylorStSox]

It all sounds good in theory, but there's a reason that teams don't platoon players all the time, it doesn't really work. You know how to turn a happy clubhouse into a pissed of clubhouse? Platoon everybody not named Konerko.

[Dick Allen]

Its too early to panic. People are used to bad offense so its reasonable to think it will continue. Last seaon the Sox scored 56 runs through 8 games and have the exact same record. We know how the rest of the season went. Just think what the different threads would be like if they had 56 so far this year.

 

[Chisoxfn]

I just listed Escobar as a possibility , a shot in the dark so to speak. We can still develop and compete. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. He's a switch hitter , makes good contact ,can hit opposite field well and runs fairly well. I like his bat control. Most would have listed him as a long shot to even make the team based on his " track record". If Beckham and even Morel continue to struggle Escobar deserves more time.

Escobar is better than Beckham.

[iamshack]

Escobar is better than Beckham.

I'm still not willing to concede this.