flavum Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 08:21 AM) Calling up "Dallas McPherson and Conor Jackson and giving them regular playing time" is not "Playing to win" by any reasonable definition. They probably wouldn't play every day. Lillibridge and Escobar would likely get more time. I'm just saying Morel and Beckham are bringing nothing to the offense, and it's not a waste to bring up McPherson or Jackson right now if the net result is a better offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (flavum @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 09:28 AM) They probably wouldn't play every day. Lillibridge and Escobar would likely get more time. I'm just saying Morel and Beckham are bringing nothing to the offense, and it's not a waste to bring up McPherson or Jackson right now if the net result is a better offense. Playing Eduardo Escobar every day is not "Playing to win". I'm not quite sure what playing Lillibridge every day is, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Some of you have brought up a very important question. Is this team interested in playing to win, or solely in developing their young talent? If they are playing to win now, and thus take advantage of the outstanding pitching they currently possess, then they need to insert a few legitimate Big League players into the lineup. If they are playing to develop the youngsters, then K. W. should immediately begin to try and unload all of the tradeable assets in the organization. The Angels would likely give up a couple of pretty good prospects for Thornton and Crain, as they desparately need bullpen help. There must be some team out there who could use a durable and serviceable, left handed hitting catcher. Peavy may be on the cusp of convincing, or should I say fooling, some GM into thinking that he could stay healthy all year, and help carry them to the post season. Even Paulie would be a trade candidate, unless the organization thought that there was a slim chance that the youngsters could be ready to make a run, by next season. Sox management will likely make a decision before the All Star break, but in the meantime, how much would it hurt to send a few youngsters to AAA, and try to replace them, temporarily with Major League ready talent. Of course, most of you know that I put Conor Jackson in that catagory, but he's not the only solution to some of the other holes in this lineup. Edited April 17, 2012 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 16, 2012 -> 09:17 AM) This. To me Escobar is the 25th man on the roster. It is going to take more than a spring that is way out of his career norms to change my mind. If Gordo needs to go, then Brent is the next guy in line. When multiple guys are struggling even so early they both need time somewhere . Fukodome in my mind is the 25th man. No possible future with the Sox . At least Escobar and Lillibridge have that possibility going for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 11:33 AM) Some of you have brought up a very important point. Is this team interested in playing to win, or to develop their young talent? If they are playing to win now, and thus take advantage of the outstanding pitching they currently possess, then they need to insert a few legitimate Big League players into the lineup. If they are playing to develop the youngsters, then K. W. should immediately begin to try and unload all of the tradeable assets in the organization. The Angels would likely give up a couple of pretty good prospects for Thornton and Crain, as they desparately need bullpen help. There must be some team out there who could use a durable and serviceable, left handed hitting catcher. Peavy may be on the cusp of convincing, or should I say fooling, some GM into thinking that he could stay healthy all year, and help carry them to the post season. Even Paulie would be a trade candidate, unless the organization thought that there was a slim chance that the youngsters could be ready to make a run, by next season. Sox management will likely make a decision before the All Star break, but in the meantime, how much would it hurt to send a few youngsters to AAA, and try to replace them, temporarily with Major League ready talent. Of course, most of you know that I put Conor Jackson in that catagory, but he's not the only solution to some of the other holes in this lineup. What Major League ready talent do we have to replace them with. Dallas McPherson, Conor Jackson, Dan Johnson? There's a reason that these guys have to fight to try and make a roster and can only get Minor League deals. The only one that has proven he can play at the Major League level is Jackson and he has big question marks with his health. They weren't counting on winning this year anyways so you might as well let Beckham and Morel play to develop for the future. Edited April 17, 2012 by lasttriptotulsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I was told by nearly everyone here that once Greg Walker is fired things will improve. Nope, a lack of talent (Morel), or not wanting to be coached (Beckham, Rios) were not to blame. Doesn't this season so far (albeit a very small sample) prove that hitting coaches really don't matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 11:23 AM) What Major League ready talent do we have to replace them with. Dallas McPherson, Conor Jackson, Dan Johnson? There's a reason that these guys have to fight to try and make a roster and can only get Minor League deals. The only one that has proven he can play at the Major League level is Jackson and he has big question marks with his health. They weren't counting on winning this year anyways so you might as well let Beckham and Morel play to develop for the future. I understand and don't disagree with that approach. However, shouldn't they then be trying to trade the veteran players, who could net them more prospects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (flavum @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 08:28 AM) They probably wouldn't play every day. Lillibridge and Escobar would likely get more time. I'm just saying Morel and Beckham are bringing nothing to the offense, and it's not a waste to bring up McPherson or Jackson right now if the net result is a better offense. It is a complete waste of the organizations future. The Sox need to figure out if specific guys are going to be contributors to the future in this organization. 9 games is not enough time to make that determination. Bringing up the Dewayne Wises and Andy Gonzalez's of today isn't doing what the team needs. All In is all over. We don't need to worry about minimal incremental improvement of a few guys. We need to see if guys like Morel and Beckham will be able to play to their potential. That is the focus of 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 12:24 PM) I was told by nearly everyone here that once Greg Walker is fired things will improve. Nope, a lack of talent (Morel), or not wanting to be coached (Beckham, Rios) were not to blame. Doesn't this season so far (albeit a very small sample) prove that hitting coaches really don't matter? That is the most important thing you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 12:27 PM) I understand and don't disagree with that approach. However, shouldn't they then be trying to trade the veteran players, who could net them more prospects? We have very few guys who are tradeable. Nobody is gonna take Dunn, Peavy or Rios at their salaries. We could probably find takers for PK, AJ, Crain and Thornton, but at most of their salaries we wouldn't get much in return, plus AJ and PK have full no trade clauses. The only one I could maybe see getting moved would be Floyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 10:27 AM) I understand and don't disagree with that approach. However, shouldn't they then be trying to trade the veteran players, who could net them more prospects? Now ? Later ,if they are out of it when teams decide what they need and we can provide it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 01:27 PM) I understand and don't disagree with that approach. However, shouldn't they then be trying to trade the veteran players, who could net them more prospects? If June/July rolls around and this team is 10 games back of the Tigers, which is still entirely plausible, then the answer is yes. You can wait until June. Until then, you play the guys you have and do what you can to extract value from them. If you could get a Dunn or Rios hot streak, then that might be enough to get someone desperate for an OF (hi Boston) to gamble on the last 2 years of a contract if they don't have to take on anything else. If June/July rolls around and we're 3-4 games back of the Tigers...then a whole lot of things have gone right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 06:24 PM) I was told by nearly everyone here that once Greg Walker is fired things will improve. Nope, a lack of talent (Morel), or not wanting to be coached (Beckham, Rios) were not to blame. Doesn't this season so far (albeit a very small sample) prove that hitting coaches really don't matter? Of course they don't matter in any way except making all the tools available for these hitters. Walker deserves an A as a hitting coach because by all accounts he was very organized in getting the hitters tapes to watch, organizing all the time they want to hit, tireless in assisting them to the extent they wanted to be assisted. As far as teaching them how to hit or helping them get there ... get real. These millionaires hit the way they want and sink or swim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 12:20 PM) We have very few guys who are tradeable. Nobody is gonna take Dunn, Peavy or Rios at their salaries. We could probably find takers for PK, AJ, Crain and Thornton, but at most of their salaries we wouldn't get much in return, plus AJ and PK have full no trade clauses. The only one I could maybe see getting moved would be Floyd. I agree with your assessment of the tradability of all the players you listed, except Peavy. Why wouldn't a contender be willing to give up prospects and pay that salary? It's only one year, plus the buy out for the option on his final year. Isn't it the long term commitments that scare management? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) I agree with your assessment of the tradability of all the players you listed, except Peavy. Why wouldn't a contender be willing to give up prospects and pay that salary? It's only one year, plus the buy out for the option on his final year. Isn't it the long term commitments that scare management? If you traded for Peavy at the halfway point of the season, you would be on the hook for something like $12.75 million for the rest of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 01:20 PM) We have very few guys who are tradeable. Nobody is gonna take Dunn, Peavy or Rios at their salaries. We could probably find takers for PK, AJ, Crain and Thornton, but at most of their salaries we wouldn't get much in return, plus AJ and PK have full no trade clauses. The only one I could maybe see getting moved would be Floyd. The only chance that we have to get rid of them is to play them and hope they recover. Even if the chance is small, it is infinitely bigger than the chances if we bench them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 04:01 PM) If you traded for Peavy at the halfway point of the season, you would be on the hook for something like $12.75 million for the rest of the season. Why not play to win, and if they're not competing by the All Star break, and Peavy has held up and pitched well, trade him for prospects then? That is probably K. W.'s plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 06:07 PM) Why not play to win, and if they're not competing by the All Star break, and Peavy has held up and pitched well, trade him for prospects then? That is probably K. W.'s plan. It's going to be really hard to get any prospects for Peavy even if he's pitching well. We might be able to move him, but it would almost certainly require the Sox taking up a large portion of that money 2k5 just referred to, and others have convinced me that it would really be unprecedented for the Sox to do that, even if they saved some on the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 05:07 PM) Why not play to win, and if they're not competing by the All Star break, and Peavy has held up and pitched well, trade him for prospects then? That is probably K. W.'s plan. No one is going to pay that kind of salary for Jake Peavy AND give up prospects. In fact to get someone to take Jake, we would most likely have to kick in our prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 04:11 PM) It's going to be really hard to get any prospects for Peavy even if he's pitching well. We might be able to move him, but it would almost certainly require the Sox taking up a large portion of that money 2k5 just referred to, and others have convinced me that it would really be unprecedented for the Sox to do that, even if they saved some on the deal. I can't think of an example as a precedent, but wouldn't a team like the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels shell out half a season's worth of salary, no matter how large, to acquire a starting pitcher for the chance to go to the Post Season, and then have a formidable rotation for the Playoffs? Of course, it all depends upon how well Peavy is pitching at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 06:19 PM) I can't think of an example as a precedent, but wouldn't a team like the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels shell out half a season's worth of salary, no matter how large, to acquire a starting pitcher for the chance to go to the Post Season, and then have a formidable rotation for the Playoffs? Of course, it all depends upon how well Peavy is pitching at the time. For them to shell out $12 million, he'd have to be having an incredible season. The Red Sox, btw, seem like they're doing everything they can to stay under the luxury tax, so count them out. The Yankees are 7 deep in their rotation if Pettitte can give them anything, so at best, count them as "Unlikely". The Angels...maybe...but they're still not likely to pick up $12 million. I could see it possibly happening if Peavy is having a real good season and the Sox pick up $6 million of what remains...but that's a huge amount of money for the Sox to send along with a player, and they just haven't done that for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 05:19 PM) I can't think of an example as a precedent, but wouldn't a team like the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels shell out half a season's worth of salary, no matter how large, to acquire a starting pitcher for the chance to go to the Post Season, and then have a formidable rotation for the Playoffs? Of course, it all depends upon how well Peavy is pitching at the time. This isn't just a "half of a season of salary" we are talking about. The Yankees would be paying more to Peavy than the would to Sabathia. We are talking the equivalent of over $25 million for a full season once the buy out in factored in. No one is going to touch that, even if Peavy is pitching well. He'd have to be pitching like Cy Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I wasn't thinking specifically of the teams I mentioned, but rather suggesting some team with the money, and the need for help in the rotation, due to an injury, or lack of depth. If you guys are right, then that reinforces my feeling that the Sox should try to "play to win" while they have that rotation. I'm back to my original idea of trying to find some offense to replace at least a couple of the many holes in this lineup. Having one or two weak hitters is acceptable, if they're playing great defense, especially in the infield, but not half of the lineup hitting like they did last season, and are starting out this year the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Apr 17, 2012 -> 01:05 PM) Of course they don't matter in any way except making all the tools available for these hitters. Walker deserves an A as a hitting coach because by all accounts he was very organized in getting the hitters tapes to watch, organizing all the time they want to hit, tireless in assisting them to the extent they wanted to be assisted. As far as teaching them how to hit or helping them get there ... get real. These millionaires hit the way they want and sink or swim. Watching tape? What year is it? Should I buy VHS or Beta? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I thought maybe some of you might find this old article on McPherson interesting: http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...s#disqus_thread Nothing new, just a reminder of his unfulfilled promise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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