Addressing the Offensive Short Comings

[Lillian]

OK, that's it. I've had it!!! I don't care whether they decide to "play to win", or concentrate on developing the youth. Whatever!!!!

Just please don't make us watch Dunn against left handed pitching, in the middle of the order yet! It's just too painful.

Please sit his ass down on the bench, and then do something about the rest of the useless half of the lineup.

 

Seriously, Morel needs to be given a chance to succeed. Let him hit vs. LHP, and be a late inning defensive replacement.

Bring up McPherson, and let him play 3B versus all RHP. He's been averaging well over 40 homers per 162 games, versus RHP at AAA for the last several years he's played.

 

Bring up Jackson, and let him platoon with Dunn. He can't possibly be worse vs. LHP, and might even become the terrific hitter he was before his illness.

 

Platoon Lillibridge with de Aza in CF. De Aza is over exposed when he plays vs. LHP, and Brent kills lefties. It's such an obvious move. Moreover, Lillibridge has earned a chance to at least play against lefties, after how he busted his rear end last season.

 

Platoon Fududome with Rios in RF, and hit him second. He gets on base a lot, and we desparately need that. Rios has to held accountable for his lack of production. Start with the platoon, and if he doesn't perform when he plays vs. LHP, just bench him. Enough already!!!

 

And finally, send Beckham to Charlotte, and give Kuhn a shot. People forget that Tyler was almost as dominant a hitter in college as Beckham. He just didn't demonstrate the same power, but at least he had a phenomenal average in the Big East Conference, where he hit .424 his last year. He didn't seem to take long to adjust to the wooden bat, hitting .375 that summer at Great Falls. He's exactly Beckham's age, and has proven that he can hit Minor League pitching. I'd like to see what he could do against Big League pitching. The other plus for Kuhn is that he bats left handed. I think we've seen enough of what Gordon can do at this level, at least until he changes something. Charlotte is a better place to be experimenting.

If Gordon can't even put up numbers down there, he's really in trouble.

 

Send down Escobar, along with Beckham and Stewart in order to make room for Jackson, McPherson and Kuhn.

[hogan873]

I keep seeing posts recommending benching this guy, and calling up that guy, and platooning these guys. I'm as frustrated as the next guy with the way this team is hitting (or not hitting). But platooning Morel and McPherson or Dunn and Lillibridge or Fat Guy #1 and Skinny Guy #3 is not going to happen. Morel should be given a chance but lower in the lineup. Beckham might need a AAA stint. Dunn needs to just start hitting the damn ball, I don't care if it's mental or physical or spiritual. He's gotta get his s*** together.

 

Someone else mentioned that benching the likes of Rios and Dunn does nothing, and I agree. There is absolutely zero chance anyone will trade for either of them if they spend 50% of their time warming a corner of the bench. There will at least be a slight chance if they play most of the time and actually start hitting the ball a bit.

 

I'm officially concerned about this season now, and I think that's only because I had higher hopes than a lot of people. But I keep telling myself that it's been 10 games. 152 more to go. I just hope in a month we're not saying the same things about the hitting on this team. Because by then it will most likely be very concerning.

[Lillian]

I keep seeing posts recommending benching this guy, and calling up that guy, and platooning these guys. I'm as frustrated as the next guy with the way this team is hitting (or not hitting). But platooning Morel and McPherson or Dunn and Lillibridge or Fat Guy #1 and Skinny Guy #3 is not going to happen. Morel should be given a chance but lower in the lineup. Beckham might need a AAA stint. Dunn needs to just start hitting the damn ball, I don't care if it's mental or physical or spiritual. He's gotta get his s*** together.

 

Someone else mentioned that benching the likes of Rios and Dunn does nothing, and I agree. There is absolutely zero chance anyone will trade for either of them if they spend 50% of their time warming a corner of the bench. There will at least be a slight chance if they play most of the time and actually start hitting the ball a bit.

 

I'm officially concerned about this season now, and I think that's only because I had higher hopes than a lot of people. But I keep telling myself that it's been 10 games. 152 more to go. I just hope in a month we're not saying the same things about the hitting on this team. Because by then it will most likely be very concerning.

 

I expected some people to argue that Dunn and Rios have to play full time to ever have any trade value. Unfortunately, I don't think they will become tradable, under any realistic scenario. We might as well accept that we're stuck with them. However, do we really need to suffer the worst of consequences over that fact?

[caulfield12]

OK, that's it. I've had it!!! I don't care whether they decide to "play to win", or concentrate on developing the youth. Whatever!!!!

Just please don't make us watch Dunn against left handed pitching, in the middle of the order yet! It's just too painful.

Please sit his ass down on the bench, and then do something about the rest of the useless half of the lineup.

 

Seriously, Morel needs to be given a chance to succeed. Let him hit vs. LHP, and be a late inning defensive replacement.

Bring up McPherson, and let him play 3B versus all RHP. He's been averaging well over 40 homers per 162 games, versus RHP at AAA for the last several years he's played.

 

Bring up Jackson, and let him platoon with Dunn. He can't possibly be worse vs. LHP, and might even become the terrific hitter he was before his illness.

 

Platoon Lillibridge with de Aza in CF. De Aza is over exposed when he plays vs. LHP, and Brent kills lefties. It's such an obvious move. Moreover, Lillibridge has earned a chance to at least play against lefties, after how he busted his rear end last season.

 

Platoon Fududome with Rios in RF, and hit him second. He gets on base a lot, and we desparately need that. Rios has to held accountable for his lack of production. Start with the platoon, and if he doesn't perform when he plays vs. LHP, just bench him. Enough already!!!

 

And finally, send Beckham to Charlotte, and give Kuhn a shot. People forget that Tyler was almost as dominant a hitter in college as Beckham. He just didn't demonstrate the same power, but at least he had a phenomenal average in the Big East Conference, where he hit .424 his last year. He didn't seem to take long to adjust to the wooden bat, hitting .375 that summer at Great Falls. He's exactly Beckham's age, and has proven that he can hit Minor League pitching. I'd like to see what he could do against Big League pitching. The other plus for Kuhn is that he bats left handed. I think we've seen enough of what Gordon can do at this level, at least until he changes something. Charlotte is a better place to be experimenting.

If Gordon can't even put up numbers down there, he's really in trouble.

 

Send down Escobar, along with Beckham and Stewart in order to make room for Jackson, McPherson and Kuhn.

 

 

 

If we did that after only 10 games, everyone in baseball would think we were nuts.

 

Those three players getting significant playing time is the very definition of experimenting.

 

They White Sox didn't protect Kuhn this last winter, they thought so highly of him. Same with Doyle. And yet both players are still with the organization.

 

 

[Lillian]

If we did that after only 10 games, everyone in baseball would think we were nuts.

 

Those three players getting significant playing time is the very definition of experimenting.

 

They White Sox didn't protect Kuhn this last winter, they thought so highly of him. Same with Doyle. And yet both players are still with the organization.

 

If this were a matter of only 10 games, I wouldn't think twice about it. However, Rios was terrible in 2009 and last year, and now is at it again.

Dunn was unbelievably bad last year, as we all know. Where is the improvement?

Beckham has been a lost cause since his brief stint in his rookie year.

Morel has not yet demonstrated his ability to hit Big League pitching.

 

Would you prefer to suffer through another year of these inept hitters?

This is the American League. No team is going to compete against the Yankees, Rangers, Angels and Tigers with a lineup full of automatic outs like we're running out there on a nightly basis.

 

If they don't want to compete, and waste the pitching they have, then I don't care if they opt for cleaning house. But I don't see how they do that with all of the expensive, contracts which most of you guys argue are impossible to unload.

 

Take these suggestions one at a time, and please tell me what you would do:

1 Rios - Would you prefer to watch him continue to make outs, or give someone a chance to get on base? He could still be a late inning defensive replacement for Viciedo.

 

2 Dunn - Would you prefer to platoon Dunn for those relatively few at bats vs. LHP? Or, would you rather just watch him put on a nightly demonstration of the definition of "an exercise in futility?"

 

3 Beckham - Is this tortuous experience really good for his psyche? I don't think he is developing, as much as getting really messed up. What would you do with him?

 

4 Morel - He is not ready to be a contributing corner infielder, except with his defense. I only suggested that he have reduced playing time, but if you think it would be better for him to play every day, maybe he should go back to Charlotte?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lillian

[caulfield12]

If this were a matter of only 10 games, I wouldn't think twice about it. However, Rios was terrible in 2009 and last year, and now is at it again.

Dunn was unbelievably bad last year, as we all know. Where is the improvement?

Beckham has been a lost cause since his brief stint in his rookie year.

Morel has not yet demonstrated his ability to hit Big League pitching.

 

Would you prefer to suffer through another year of these inept hitters?

This is the American League. No team is going to compete against the Yankees, Rangers, Angels and Tigers with a lineup full of automatic outs like we're running out there on a nightly basis.

 

If they don't want to compete, and waste the pitching they have, then I don't care if they opt for cleaning house. But I don't see how they do that with all of the expensive, contracts which most of you guys argue are impossible to unload.

 

Take these suggestions one at a time, and please tell me what you would do:

1 Rios - Would you prefer to watch him continue to make outs, or give someone a chance to get on base? He could still be a late inning defensive replacement for Viciedo.

 

2 Dunn - Would you prefer to platoon Dunn for those relatively few at bats vs. LHP? Or, would you rather just watch him put on a nightly demonstration of the definition of "an exercise in futility?"

 

3 Beckham - Is this tortuous experience really good for his psyche? I don't think he is developing, as much as getting really messed up. What would you do with him?

 

4 Morel - He is not ready to be a contributing corner infielder, except with his defense. Couldn't he benefit by playing everyday at Charlotte?

 

But the same "how many times do we have to watch them fail" arguments apply to Jackson and particularly McPherson.

 

McPherson's going to weaken one of our strengths, which is our infield defense. How many times has he had a chance to stick in the majors, and he's failed each and every time. The Angels notoriously hold on to their prospects like Brandon Wood, Casey Kotchmann and McPherson, if ANYTHING, too long.

 

Adam Dunn has a decade-long track record of production. Conor Jackson couldn't even stick with the A's, who are more in need of offense perhaps than, well, any team but the White Sox and Mariners.

 

If he was 100% healthy now, wouldn't he be showing a lot more XB power at Charlotte, which is basically like playing at a glorified Pony/Colt League stadium? Where are the indicators of strength, besides his walk totals?

 

Beckham should be sent down, that's one most of us agree on.

 

Morel was a rookie last year, finished well and had a very good spring. He's owed at least 2-3 more weeks AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LINE-UP to get his act together. Not only that, but Ventura mentioned he wants Brent in the line-up for his bunting ability. Who else are you going to hit second who can bunt well? I don't supposed you're going to argue that Jackson and McPherson are talented at bunting?

 

Rios has at least won a game for us with a homer and has some pop in his bat. He had two hits yesterday. He's a two time All-Star, and at least has the ability to put up 20+ homers, 80+ RBI's, 30+ steals.

 

With your line-up, we might be starting Conor Jackson, Brent Lillibridge/Fukudome, Dallas McPherson and Tyler Kuhn...that sounds like the kind of team that should be competing in the International League, not in the AL. Or a spring training B game line-up.

 

If that's going to both save our season and be a building block for the future, we're in REALLY big trouble, worse than anyone imagined.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I expected some people to argue that Dunn and Rios have to play full time to ever have any trade value. Unfortunately, I don't think they will become tradable, under any realistic scenario. We might as well accept that we're stuck with them. However, do we really need to suffer the worst of consequences over that fact?

 

If they play like they have, there is no realistic scenario that has us winning anything anyway. Connor Jackson and Dallas McPherson aren't going to win us the AL Central.

[Lillian]

Thanks "Caulfield". Your points are all well taken. In answer to your question, I had Fukudome in the #2 hole. He's a good bunter and a high OBP guy.

Versus LHP, I'd put Alexei there. He's a career .302 hitter vs LHP, with a .351 OBP.

 

So, perhaps we have to wait til around Memorial Day for any changes. If this keeps up, would you be in favor of some changes then?

[Balta1701]

If this keeps up, would you be in favor of some changes then?

Honestly...aside from almost everyone agreeing on Beckham being sent down...no.

 

The only good reason to bench Dunn or Rios is if you think they'll retire if you do so. Until at least the end of this season, they're dead weight if they can't contribute (rios of course did have a couple hits yesterday). Otherwise, you might as well try to get lucky and have them find a groove. If a couple days off helps, fine, but if playing them loses games, so what?

 

Morel and Viciedo...those guys are in the spot where playing time against MLB pitchers is still the biggest thing they need. They both were moved up to the major league level pretty quickly. If that's the way we're doing things in this system, then we need to stick with that until the early struggles are worked through. If playing them loses games, so what? Their replacements won't win the Central, won't be here next year if anyone else wants them, and won't get us anything of value in trades.

[Lillian]

I've never suggested benching or platooning Viciedo, much less sending him back to Charlotte. I agree that he needs to play almost every day.

 

And, Dallas McPherson cannot be considered a failed prospect. He's only had a total of 386 at bats in the Majors, and that's spread out over the last 7 years.

Even then, his split stats aren't that bad. You have to account for his having a couple of back surgeries. It's probably just a question of health with him, much the same as with Jackson.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lillian

[Big Hurtin]

I thought maybe some of you might find this old article on McPherson interesting:

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...s#disqus_thread

 

Nothing new, just a reminder of his unfulfilled promise

 

Cool, can you find anything on Joe Borchard or Brian Anderson?

[Balta1701]

I've never suggested benching or platooning Viciedo, much less sending him back to Charlotte. I agree that he needs to play almost every day.

 

And, Dallas McPherson cannot be considered a failed prospect. He's only had a total of 386 at bats in the Majors, and that's spread out over the last 7 years.

Even then, his split stats aren't that bad. You have to account for his having a couple of back surgeries. It's probably just a question of health with him, much the same as with Jackson.

No, it's also a question of McPherson generally being considered pretty bad in the field, not just health.

 

And I won't be surprised if Viciedo's in something of a slump soon. He's back in that "Struggling to hit or lay off the high fastball" mode.

[southsider2k5]

I've never suggested benching or platooning Viciedo, much less sending him back to Charlotte. I agree that he needs to play almost every day.

 

And, Dallas McPherson cannot be considered a failed prospect. He's only had a total of 386 at bats in the Majors, and that's spread out over the last 7 years.

Even then, his split stats aren't that bad. You have to account for his having a couple of back surgeries. It's probably just a question of health with him, much the same as with Jackson.

 

No one wants the guy. That should tell you a lot.

[iamshack]

Don't look now, but Alex has a 5 game hitting streak...baby steps...

[Lillian]

Cool, can you find anything on Joe Borchard or Brian Anderson?

 

Wise Guy!! Neither of those players were ever the kind of prospect that McPherson was. Moreover, neither of them ever put up the kinds of numbers Dallas has in the Minor Leagues. He has had a very difficult and long struggle to get back after a couple of very serious back surgeries. Give him a break, and me too, while you're at it.

[Balta1701]

Wise Guy!! Neither of those players were ever the kind of prospect that McPherson was. Moreover, neither of them ever put up the kinds of numbers Dallas has in the Minor Leagues. He has had a very difficult and long struggle to get back after a couple of very serious back surgeries. Give him a break, and me too, while you're at it.

Joe Borchard got to AA a year younger than McPherson got there and put up an .892 OPS in a big park in birmingham (not the hitters paradises that the Angels prospects wind up in).

[caulfield12]

Borchard > McPherson > Anderson > Morel

[Lillian]

Joe Borchard got to AA a year younger than McPherson got there and put up an .892 OPS in a big park in birmingham (not the hitters paradises that the Angels prospects wind up in).

 

I didn't know that the Angels' Minor League Parks were so hitter friendly.

 

However, Isotopes Park, where he played AAA ball in the Marlins organization is a big Park, 340 down the lines and 428 to right center, with a long embankment in right center. He had a great year there in 2008: 42 HR and 98 RBI's in just 127 games, with a .379 OBP. And, he's been hitting AAA pitching, especially RHP ever since then.

[Balta1701]

I didn't know that the Angels' Minor League Parks were so hitter friendly.

 

However, Isotopes Park, where he played AAA ball in the Marlins organization is a big Park, 340 down the lines and 428 to right center, with a long embankment in right center. He had a great year there in 2008: 42 HR and 98 RBI's in just 127 games, with a .379 OBP. And, he's been hitting AAA pitching, especially RHP ever since then.

The hitter-friendliness of the Angels minor league parks and the leagues they play in (Particularly the PCL) are, IMO, one of the big reasons for how guys like McPherson and Brandon Wood wound up so highly touted and then had such huge issues translating to the big leagues. Even guys who succeeded for them, like Kendrick and Morales...needed a ton of time to really shine through. Kendrick hit .360 with a .972 OPS coming up through the Angels org, had people predicting he'd win batting titles in his first year, got to the big leagues early, but then last year, his 6th big league season, was the first time he put up a >.800 OPS in a full big league year.

 

Mike Trout...I don't know if he's on this path or not, but it's one we've seen before.

[Lillian]

The hitter-friendliness of the Angels minor league parks and the leagues they play in (Particularly the PCL) are, IMO, one of the big reasons for how guys like McPherson and Brandon Wood wound up so highly touted and then had such huge issues translating to the big leagues. Even guys who succeeded for them, like Kendrick and Morales...needed a ton of time to really shine through. Kendrick hit .360 with a .972 OPS coming up through the Angels org, had people predicting he'd win batting titles in his first year, got to the big leagues early, but then last year, his 6th big league season, was the first time he put up a >.800 OPS in a full big league year.

 

Mike Trout...I don't know if he's on this path or not, but it's one we've seen before.

 

That's a very interesting bit of insight. If that's true, maybe the Angels don't have the prospects I assumed they did, to trade for the bullpen help the Sox could supply them with Thornton and Crain.

Thanks

[Balta1701]

That's a very interesting bit of insight. If that's true, maybe the Angels don't have the prospects I assumed they did, to trade for the bullpen help the Sox could supply them with Thornton and Crain.

Thanks

Don't get me wrong, the Angels have the prospects to make that deal, but outside of Trout, they aren't sitting on anyone who looks like they're a star. Mid-season, if the Angels wanted to make that deal and the Sox have fallen out of it, a couple of their non-Trout pieces ought to work, but yeah, Taylor Lindsey putting up a .987 OPS in rookie ball doesn't mean he's the next Robinson Cano just yet.

[southsider2k5]

I didn't know that the Angels' Minor League Parks were so hitter friendly.

 

However, Isotopes Park, where he played AAA ball in the Marlins organization is a big Park, 340 down the lines and 428 to right center, with a long embankment in right center. He had a great year there in 2008: 42 HR and 98 RBI's in just 127 games, with a .379 OBP. And, he's been hitting AAA pitching, especially RHP ever since then.

 

Their park is just barely under a mile above sea level. Think Miller Park in Denver. Huge dimensions, light air. The ball just flies out of them, and with the big dimensions, not only are there more long balls, but there are more hits as the OF is just huge.

[Lillian]

Their park is just barely under a mile above sea level. Think Miller Park in Denver. Huge dimensions, light air. The ball just flies out of them, and with the big dimensions, not only are there more long balls, but there are more hits as the OF is just huge.

 

In checking some of the stats for that park, and the league, the results corroborate what you're saying.

 

Nevertheless, he did lead his team offensively in 2008 with his 42 HR. and 98 RBI's in 127 games.

 

 

[hogan873]

Don't look now, but Alex has a 5 game hitting streak...baby steps...

I'm actually feeling better about Rios right now than Dunn. Aside from the first game, Dunn looks lost at the plate again. Rios looks better than last year, although not as good as he should look.

[southsider2k5]

I'm actually feeling better about Rios right now than Dunn. Aside from the first game, Dunn looks lost at the plate again. Rios looks better than last year, although not as good as he should look.

 

Outside of the dropped ball, he has actually looked pretty solid in RF.