Viciedo Not Worth The Wait

[Balta1701]

It was Ozzie's idea, but he supposedly was Ozzie's boss. He eventually overrode him in September when he claimed a fresh off steroid suspension Manny, in what was perhaps the biggest waste of $4 million in his reign, and he's blown some money.

Manroid was KW admitting Ozzie's Kotsay idea was crap.

[iamshack]

It was Ozzie's idea, but he supposedly was Ozzie's boss. He eventually overrode him in September when he claimed a fresh off steroid suspension Manny, in what was perhaps the biggest waste of $4 million in his reign, and he's blown some money.

This is horses*** and you know it.

 

You don't get to choose to utilize your knowledge of how the organization works when it benefits you but conveniently ignore it when it doesn't. JR told KW that they were going to give Ozzie a chance to put together his type of team, because he shouldn't be responsible if they handed him a team he didn't choose...so they allowed him to jettison Thome.

[Dick Allen]

This is horses*** and you know it.

 

You don't get to choose to utilize your knowledge of how the organization works when it benefits you but conveniently ignore it when it doesn't. JR told KW that they were going to give Ozzie a chance to put together his type of team, because he shouldn't be responsible if they handed him a team he didn't choose...so they allowed him to jettison Thome.

So JR changed his mind in September?

So then they let KW compound the mistake and spend $4 million for one month of a guy who just served a steroid suspension?

Was that not a ridiculous waiver claim?

You seem to choose how to utilize your knowledge of how the organization works. Why is it you constantly criticize others while doing exactly what your criticize others for doing?

 

I know you love KW and would never say anything bad about him, but whether you want to admit it or not, he's really screwed up the past few years.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

So JR changed his mind in September?

So then they let KW compound the mistake and spend $4 million for one month of a guy who just served a steroid suspension?

Was that not a ridiculous waiver claim?

You seem to choose how to utilize your knowledge of how the organization works. Why is it you constantly criticize others while doing exactly what your criticize others for doing?

 

I know you love KW and would never say anything bad about him, but whether you want to admit it or not, he's really screwed up the past few years.

Yeah, he did, when it was clear it had been a huge mistake to not bring back Thome. In fact, he changed his mind much earlier than that. We tried to trade for Manny in July, but the Dodgers wanted Viciedo in return.

 

It turned out to be a poor claim, sure. But at the time I certainly remember being all for it. I was also all for it in July as well (I was not in favor of trading Viciedo for him). We needed a big stick and he was what was available. Even though he didn't hit for us, I do remember the first handful of games where we benefited from him just being in the on-deck circle. Had we ended up making it to the postseason because of a few games where some of our hitters saw better pitches to hit because of Manny, the money would have been well justified. But yes, it is very easy to look in hindsight now and say it was a waste, since it didn't work out.

 

As for the bolded, I don't have a clue what you are trying to say there.

 

My position on Kenny has been constant since I've joined this forum. He provides the talent, but for whatever reason, it often times hasn't turned into the best collection of talent on the field. He's certainly provided us with the talent on paper to win this division almost every year he's been here. One would hope the coaching staff would be able to extract more wins out of that talent, but I do realize putting the "right" pieces together, and not just the "best" pieces together, is part of Kenny's job as well. If he has failed, it has been in doing that.

Edited May 19, 2012 by iamshack

[Jake]

I feel like there is a difference between making a decision that doesn't work and making a very bad decision.

 

Bringing in Manny Ramirez to a team without a DH? Good decision in theory, didn't do much in practice.

 

Choosing Mark Kotsay over Jim Thome as your DH? Bad decision in theory, worse in practice (thanks Oz)

 

Extending Mark Teahen before seeing him play 3B? Bad decision in theory, worse in practice (at least we dumped him)

 

To me, there is a distinct difference between the first decision and the latter two. People keep harping on KW for decisions like the first one which happen fairly frequently.

[elrock]

Viciedo is looking better (I posted this as my alter ego as the elrockinMT I use is locked out again) I sent PM to Balta

Edited May 19, 2012 by elrock

[TaylorStSox]

How can you be pissed at a GM taking a flier on Manny Ramirez, "the" Manny Ramirez, the best RH hitter of our generation not named Thomas or Pujols , Manny Ramirez? It's too bad we ended up with corpse of Manny Ramirez, but he's still Manny f***in Ramirez.

[southsider2k5]

1 post-season win in 6 seasons, Dick. KW's record is what it is.

 

We get it, his name has "dick" in it.

[Marty34]

We get it, his name has "dick" in it.

 

I'm glad you got it!

[caulfield12]

Prediction, two weeks from now, it will be back to "Molina sucks! KW must go!" because criticizing Viciedo will 1) get boring, and 2) what's the point whether he's more like Beltre, Vladdy, Carlos Lee, Bobby Bonilla, Juan Uribe, Magglio Ordonez, Rey Ordonez...he's young and under our control, and relatively cheaply, through 2018, all the prime years for a young hitter will be encompassed.

 

Whereas the A's are spending over 4X as much for a player in Cespedes that will be gone to another team for even more money in 4 years when he's at the very top of his game and has figured out how to adjust to MLB pitching, theoretically.

 

At least we set up our contract with Viciedo in a manner in which if he performs as expected, we don't lose him right at the most critical juncture for the rebuilding effort.

 

 

[Jake]

Prediction, two weeks from now, it will be back to "Molina sucks! KW must go!" because criticizing Viciedo will 1) get boring, and 2) what's the point whether he's more like Beltre, Vladdy, Carlos Lee, Bobby Bonilla, Juan Uribe, Magglio Ordonez, Rey Ordonez...he's young and under our control, and relatively cheaply, through 2018, all the prime years for a young hitter will be encompassed.

 

Whereas the A's are spending over 4X as much for a player in Cespedes that will be gone to another team for even more money in 4 years when he's at the very top of his game and has figured out how to adjust to MLB pitching, theoretically.

 

At least we set up our contract with Viciedo in a manner in which if he performs as expected, we don't lose him right at the most critical juncture for the rebuilding effort.

 

That part is unbelievable. Really shortens the A's window for winning and almost assured that they won't retain him. Makes me wonder what higher dollar amounts he may have turned down in exchange for getting to be a FA early.

[Greg Hibbard]

1 post-season win in 6 seasons, Dick. KW's record is what it is.

 

So basically you're chastising our GM for baseball being the hardest sport to qualify for the playoffs in. 8 teams out of 30 go. In any other sport, our record in 2010 and 2006 would have sent us. Here is a list of other teams that have had 1 or less playoff win in the past six years;

 

Toronto

Baltimore

Minnesota

Kansas City

Seattle

Cubs

Cincinnati

Pittsburg

Houston

San Diego

Florida

Washington

Atlanta

 

14 out of 30 teams haven't won more than 1 playoff game in the past 6 years.

 

How many current GMs have won a world series anywhere?

Edited May 19, 2012 by Greg Hibbard

[Jake]

So basically you're chastising out GM for baseball being the hardest sport to qualify for the playoffs in. 8 teams out of 30 go. In any other sport, our record in 2010 and 2006 would have sent us. Here is a list of other teams that have has 1 or less playoff win in the past six years;

 

Toronto

Baltimore

Minnesota

Kansas City

Seattle

Cubs

Cincinnati

Pittsburg

Houston

San Diego

Florida

Washington

Atlanta

 

14 out of 30 teams haven't won more than 1 playoff game in the past 6 years.

 

How many current GMs have won a world series anywhere?

 

This is true and I'll go ahead and make the counterargument for Marty -- Chicago is an immense market and the White Sox do spend like they are in such a market. Our expectations should be significantly higher than average for achievement.

 

Now...we have a World Series title. That's a big one. We also are a team that no longer spends time in last place. While some people don't distinguish between last and second, there's a difference. Contending is better for crowds and obviously it is easier (at least in the short term) to turn a second place team into a first place team -- these teams are a big signing/trade/fluke away from 95 wins.

 

I will say that the past 6 years with just 1 playoff appearance is not enough. That 6 year stretch is not acceptable (though 2006 was a squad that makes the playoff under the current format/most years 90 wins gets you in anyway). I distinguished in this thread between moves that basically have no chance of working out and moves that should work out, but don't. I feel that the latter have cost us by far the most -- see last season. That does not necessarily get you job security. The end of last season was a time when KW was very vulnerable and had he been fired, as a fan of both the Sox and KW I would not have been angry.

 

I do believe that KW is a GM capable of putting together a consistent winner. He's done 1 thing in particular that not many GMs can say they did, and he did it with a middling payroll when he did it. He's also done a good job of keeping the Sox out of the cellar, but that is a minimum requirement. The fact is that JR chose KW to bring things back for the White Sox. We deconstructed last year's team as much as we could (given contractual constraints and a desire not to trade assets just for the sake of trading them like Gavin Floyd). We are now trying to do something that I believe a large market team should be able to do...rebuild without having a completely pathetic onfield product. This is a team with a reasonable chance to make the playoffs despite having a significantly lower payroll than the year before and no outside acquisitions...again, this is something large market teams should do while rebuilding. By the end of the season we should either be in the playoffs or have gained value in young players due to non-contention.

 

cliffs:

-KW didn't do a terrible job, but the team didn't win

-this makes you vulnerable to lose your job

-JR chose to keep KW to move forward

-bad teams change management in the middle of rebuilds (see Oakland Raiders coaching)

-this season has the makings of a successful start to a rebuild in the Chicago market

 

[Marty34]

This is true and I'll go ahead and make the counterargument for Marty -- Chicago is an immense market and the White Sox do spend like they are in such a market. Our expectations should be significantly higher than average for achievement.

 

Now...we have a World Series title. That's a big one. We also are a team that no longer spends time in last place. While some people don't distinguish between last and second, there's a difference. Contending is better for crowds and obviously it is easier (at least in the short term) to turn a second place team into a first place team -- these teams are a big signing/trade/fluke away from 95 wins.

 

I will say that the past 6 years with just 1 playoff appearance is not enough. That 6 year stretch is not acceptable (though 2006 was a squad that makes the playoff under the current format/most years 90 wins gets you in anyway). I distinguished in this thread between moves that basically have no chance of working out and moves that should work out, but don't. I feel that the latter have cost us by far the most -- see last season. That does not necessarily get you job security. The end of last season was a time when KW was very vulnerable and had he been fired, as a fan of both the Sox and KW I would not have been angry.

 

I do believe that KW is a GM capable of putting together a consistent winner. He's done 1 thing in particular that not many GMs can say they did, and he did it with a middling payroll when he did it. He's also done a good job of keeping the Sox out of the cellar, but that is a minimum requirement. The fact is that JR chose KW to bring things back for the White Sox. We deconstructed last year's team as much as we could (given contractual constraints and a desire not to trade assets just for the sake of trading them like Gavin Floyd). We are now trying to do something that I believe a large market team should be able to do...rebuild without having a completely pathetic onfield product. This is a team with a reasonable chance to make the playoffs despite having a significantly lower payroll than the year before and no outside acquisitions...again, this is something large market teams should do while rebuilding. By the end of the season we should either be in the playoffs or have gained value in young players due to non-contention.

 

cliffs:

-KW didn't do a terrible job, but the team didn't win

-this makes you vulnerable to lose your job

-JR chose to keep KW to move forward

-bad teams change management in the middle of rebuilds (see Oakland Raiders coaching)

-this season has the makings of a successful start to a rebuild in the Chicago market

 

I think this is a fair assessment. The big problem facing the Sox is 6 years/1 playoff appearance and this team hasn't bottomed out yet. They could go another 3-4 years before there next appearance and that would be a disaster.

 

If they can make the playoffs this year and shore up the season ticket base some in the process it would give Williams more time and resources to do a "soft landing" type of rebuild.

 

[Marty34]

Prediction, two weeks from now, it will be back to "Molina sucks! KW must go!" because criticizing Viciedo will 1) get boring, and 2) what's the point whether he's more like Beltre, Vladdy, Carlos Lee, Bobby Bonilla, Juan Uribe, Magglio Ordonez, Rey Ordonez...he's young and under our control, and relatively cheaply, through 2018, all the prime years for a young hitter will be encompassed.

 

Whereas the A's are spending over 4X as much for a player in Cespedes that will be gone to another team for even more money in 4 years when he's at the very top of his game and has figured out how to adjust to MLB pitching, theoretically.

 

At least we set up our contract with Viciedo in a manner in which if he performs as expected, we don't lose him right at the most critical juncture for the rebuilding effort.

 

The A's would not have gotten Cespedes without offering him that deal. If he's any good, he's likely to be gone in a couple years used as a chip in the A's building process as they get their stadium situation sorted out.

[Balta1701]

The A's would not have gotten Cespedes without offering him that deal. If he's any good, he's likely to be gone in a couple years used as a chip in the A's building process as they get their stadium situation sorted out.

The A's have 1 postseason appearance in the past 8 seasons.

[2nd_city_saint787]

 

 

I will say that the past 6 years with just 1 playoff appearance is not enough. That 6 year stretch is not acceptable (though 2006 was a squad that makes the playoff under the current format/most years 90 wins gets you in anyway). I distinguished in this thread between moves that basically have no chance of working out and moves that should work out, but don't. I feel that the latter have cost us by far the most -- see last season. That does not necessarily get you job security. The end of last season was a time when KW was very vulnerable and had he been fired, as a fan of both the Sox and KW I would not have been angry.

 

 

 

And for what its worth the 2010 Sox woulda been 1 game from grabbing the second wild card. What was that teams biggest flaw?? A LH power hitter right?? So what did KW do? He went out and got the best free agent LH power hitter available Adam Dunn. That SHOULD have been enough to get the sox over the top and back into the playoffs, but no Adam Dunn took a massive dump on the 2011 season. Its impossible to fault KW for that, and hard not to actually applaud his efforts.

 

As far as this Dayan thing goes? Just stop it, IMO its pretty darn right stupid to even think about trading a 23 year old slugger who has the potental to hit 30+ HR. Once he gets hot (and it sure looks like hes getting there) the sox are going to have just an awesome, awesome middle of the lineup.

[Jordan4life_2007]

How can you be pissed at a GM taking a flier on Manny Ramirez, "the" Manny Ramirez, the best RH hitter of our generation not named Thomas or Pujols , Manny Ramirez? It's too bad we ended up with corpse of Manny Ramirez, but he's still Manny f***in Ramirez.

 

You mean the same Ramirez that was busted for PED's in 2009 and then spent three separate stints on the DL in 2010 before the White Sox came calling? lol@taking a flier. They took a flier on Phil Humber. They spent $4 million bucks on Manny for 30 days to get them to the playoffs. Didn't end so well.

[Marty34]

The A's have 1 postseason appearance in the past 8 seasons.

 

What is your point?

[Balta1701]

What is your point?

You should despise Cespedes. He was a big signing by a GM who can't build a team who can succeed unless he's handed a great pitching staff.

[Marty34]

You should despise Cespedes. He was a big signing by a GM who can't build a team who can succeed unless he's handed a great pitching staff.

 

It sounds like you don't like the move. I don't care one way or the other about the A's.

[TaylorStSox]

You mean the same Ramirez that was busted for PED's in 2009 and then spent three separate stints on the DL in 2010 before the White Sox came calling? lol@taking a flier. They took a flier on Phil Humber. They spent $4 million bucks on Manny for 30 days to get them to the playoffs. Didn't end so well.

So what? He's still Manny Ramirez. They had the money. They spent the money. It was a low risk/high upside move that didn't work out. When KW gets fired/retires/or whatever, you think people are going to look back and say, "Yeah, that guy was a clown. He took a shot at Manny Ramirez in a pennant race."

 

*disclaimer*

I'm pretty cynical about PED's, like cynical enough that I think most ball players still cheat. I'm cynical like thinking Josh Hamilton's great year is the result of him finding a better coke guy, with the Peruvian s***.

[Dick Allen]

So what? He's still Manny Ramirez. They had the money. They spent the money. It was a low risk/high upside move that didn't work out. When KW gets fired/retires/or whatever, you think people are going to look back and say, "Yeah, that guy was a clown. He took a shot at Manny Ramirez in a pennant race."

 

*disclaimer*

I'm pretty cynical about PED's, like cynical enough that I think most ball players still cheat. I'm cynical like thinking Josh Hamilton's great year is the result of him finding a better coke guy, with the Peruvian s***.

It clearly wasn't the same Manny Ramirez, and clearly wasn't going to be the same Manny Ramirez.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I'm cynical like thinking Josh Hamilton's great year is the result of him finding a better coke guy, with the Peruvian s***.

That's only slightly tasteless.

[Balta1701]

It clearly wasn't the same Manny Ramirez, and clearly wasn't going to be the same Manny Ramirez.

Some people here were hoping that he'd do the same thing he did when he first came to the Dodgers, come out motivated for several weeks and really make a difference.

 

I still hated the move, but I hated it because I hate acquiring roiders. I got the concept, but the roid factor really jumps the risk (suspensions, injuries, struggling without the drugs, selling your soul).