Viciedo Not Worth The Wait

[Balta1701]

And some more actual numbers.

 

In 2011, the Sox were 15th in MLB in terms of "Total chances for LF to field the ball". In 2010 they were 10th, in 2009 they were 20th.

 

The Cell is almost exactly an average park over the last 3 years in terms of chances for the LF. It's no where near the bottom of the league, like you're insinuating it is.

 

And this number is effective in seeing how a ballpark plays. The Philleis play in a hitters park, and their LF has been at the bottom of the league in chances over the past 3 years quite consistently, for example.

[caulfield12]

And the idea of moving Dunn, besides the offensive downgrade and his age, still leaves a gaping hole at DH.

 

Are we arguing that Dan Johnson, Conor Jackson or Brent Lillibridge could easily put up average MLB OPS numbers there?

 

Or just making fun of KW for obtaining a one-dimensional player who's best suited for DH and occasional 1B duties?

 

 

I'll answer Marty's question. The Tigers have a bigger payroll, aspirations of the World Series and a much more solid everyday starting line-up than the Sox. They just brought up Brad Eldred, a 31 year old version of Crash Davis AAA journeyman to be the DH for as long as he can hold the position. Eldred has 36 major/minor league RBI's in 21 games so far this year. If I'm not mistaken, he was actually in the White Sox system for ONE of those years and he never came close to getting a real opportunity in the big leagues with us.

 

It's no longer 1998 or even 2008. Huge OPS numbers at 3B, LF and RF are getting harder and harder to come by. Or 2B, too.

 

The A's signed Manny Ramirez. Johnny Damon was brought back yet again. It's just not that easy to find above-average hitters at even those positions, especially YOUNG hitters. Sure, you could answer Vladimir Guerrero or Magglio Ordonez or Aaron Rowand, but the days of those guys hitting well enough not to undo all the damage they'd inflict defensively are long gone.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

LF'ers are like setup guys you don't develop them as much as you find them. Can the guy hit, yes, put him in LF. Viciedo is not a perennial All-Star in the making in my view so giving him a year or two to develop isn't something a big market team should do. If Kenny Williams didn't have the patience to go with Dan Hudson, no way he should have it with Viciedo.

[Balta1701]

LF'ers are like setup guys you don't develop them as much as you find them. Can the guy hit, yes, put him in LF. Viciedo is not a perennial All-Star in the making in my view so giving him a year or two to develop isn't something a big market team should do. If Kenny Williams didn't have the patience to go with Dan Hudson, no way he should have it with Viciedo.

"We made a horrible, indefensible, foolish mistake with Dan Hudson. We should repeat that mistake."

[Marty34]

"We made a horrible, indefensible, foolish mistake with Dan Hudson. We should repeat that mistake."

 

The mistake with Viciedo would be keeping him. They should be looking to move him while he has value left as a prospect.

[caulfield12]

Ugh.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we go on a 26-5 run in the middle of 2010 and hold 1st place for much of the season?

 

What's the connection between not being patient with Hudson in 2010 and Viciedo in 2012?

 

Oh, because we still theoretically are in "Win Now" mode this season and if we don't win with our starting pitching, then KW deserves to be fired. And if John Danks continues to disappoint, KW deserves to be fired. And if Molina doesn't make it as a starter....well, you guessed it.

 

 

Marty, why is it so hard for the Tigers to find a DH?

Why do the World Champion Cardinals have a rookie playing 1B with .732 OPS? Shouldn't they trade him for veteran who will put up 850 or 900 at that position?

 

What next, you'll argue we should pick up Bobby Abreu and stick him in LF?

 

 

 

And you've still YET to come up with ONE EXAMPLE besides someone on our own team of a LF who's an upgrade on Viciedo and who's currently available and who we actually have the ability to acquire feasibly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

The mistake with Viciedo would be keeping him. They should be looking to move him while he has value left as a prospect.

 

Arguing that about Alexei Ramirez at least makes a BIT more sense than trading Viciedo.

 

But that doesn't fit your "fire KW now" scenario as neatly, because then you'd be forced to be patient for 2-3 years to see how a young SS performed, if it wasn't Saladino starting at that position in 2013 or 2014.

 

 

Since it's so easy to find a 1B/DH, why aren't you in favor of getting maximum value for Paul Konerko?

 

Is the attendance going to get any worse than now?

 

You could get a lot more back for Konerko than Dayan right now, and free up a lot of payroll flexibility.

 

[Marty34]

A platoon with Fukudome is an upgrade over Viciedo 500 ab's.

[Marty34]

Oh, because we still theoretically are in "Win Now" mode this season and if we don't win with our starting pitching, then KW deserves to be fired. And if John Danks continues to disappoint, KW deserves to be fired. And if Molina doesn't make it as a starter....well, you guessed it.

 

You forgot about Beckham and Morel. It's been a tough start for those who think this is a rebuilding year therefore Kenny has a free pass. Too many of the developmental guys are failing, not even the success of Sale gets Kenny off the hot seat through the first month.

 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Why is this thread still around? I haven't even read a single post in it yet because the title alone is ridiculous.

[Marty34]

Why is this thread still around? I haven't even read a single post in it yet because the title alone is ridiculous.

 

Who made you King?

[caulfield12]

And what value would Viciedo have to another team if he's already a platoon player at age 23, and sitting 60-70% of the time?

 

Has Tyler Flowers' value increased sitting on the bench behind AJ? Has he learned how to hit so he can be more effective in 2012 as a possible starter?

 

Fukudome had a 723 OPS against RHP in 2011. He's 35 years old already. So where's the upside? Let's say Fukudome did put up an 800 OPS (not likely, as he's lost some bat speed), then we end up losing him to another team anyway, finish a couple of games higher in the standings, fall a couple of more spots down towards the 16-19 spot in the first round of the June draft instead of 12-15...and we haven't developed Viciedo to be a full-time regular in 2013.

 

 

[caulfield12]

You forgot about Beckham and Morel. It's been a tough start for those who think this is a rebuilding year therefore Kenny has a free pass. Too many of the developmental guys are failing, not even the success of Sale gets Kenny off the hot seat through the first month.

 

What GM's are currently available who have developed both a #1 minor league system (1999-2001) and won a World Series on their resume?

 

And, most importantly, want the job AND will accept the contract/terms/conditions JR's offering?

[Marty34]

And what value would Viciedo have to another team if he's already a platoon player at age 23, and sitting 60-70% of the time?

 

Has Tyler Flowers' value increased sitting on the bench behind AJ? Has he learned how to hit so he can be more effective in 2012 as a possible starter?

 

Fukudome had a 723 OPS against RHP in 2011. He's 35 years old already. So where's the upside? Let's say Fukudome did put up an 800 OPS (not likely, as he's lost some bat speed), then we end up losing him to another team anyway, finish a couple of games higher in the standings, fall a couple of more spots down towards the 16-19 spot in the first round of the June draft instead of 12-15...and we haven't developed Viciedo to be a full-time regular in 2013.

 

What makes you think they won't be in the Central race all year? Fukudome is a better option than Viciedo v. right-handers.

 

If you think the goal of this season is to draft between 12-15, why is it not to draft in the top 5 or better yet the top 3?

[Marty34]

What GM's are currently available who have developed both a #1 minor league system (1999-2001) and won a World Series on their resume?

 

And, most importantly, want the job AND will accept the contract/terms/conditions JR's offering?

 

Jerry Krause won 7 titles with the Bulls, he was replaced. Are you suggesting that Kenny Williams has a job for life?

[caulfield12]

What makes you think they won't be in the Central race all year? Fukudome is a better option than Viciedo v. right-handers.

 

If you think the goal of this season is to draft between 12-15, why is it not to draft in the top 5 or better yet the top 3?

 

 

We already established that the average LF OPS was right around .727 last year.

 

Fukudome put up a .723 against RHP last year.

 

He's unlikely to increase that.

 

Dayan Viciedo is ONLY 23 years old. You're totally precluding the fact that such a young player can actually improve/adapt/adjust to RHP in favor of a veteran who has absolutely nothing to do with the future of this organization.

 

If Dayan failed to hit RHP in the minors in 2011, you might have a point, but you can't judge a young player of his age based on a sum total of less than 300 cumulative MLB at-bats at age 21-22-23.

 

 

And if the team played that poorly and our attendance was only ahead of the Indians, then you'd be here everyday saying KW should be fired, lol.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Jerry Krause won 7 titles with the Bulls, he was replaced. Are you suggesting that Kenny Williams has a job for life?

 

Having the best player in NBA history, an easy Top 50 all-time pick in Pippen and the best rebounder (for his size) of all time in Rodman helped a bit there.

 

It's a lot easier to turn around an NBA team in a year or two than an MLB team, especially if you're willing to spend a ton of money on free agents.

 

And spending money on free agents is clearly not the way to go right now in baseball, anyway. Look at the Angels or Marlins. So there's no choice but to be patient. Sox fans are used to that. Not even the Yankees or Red Sox are going that route anymore.

Edited April 28, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

Having the best player in NBA history, an easy Top 50 all-time pick in Pippen and the best rebounder (for his size) of all time in Rodman helped a bit there.

 

It's a lot easier to turn around an NBA team in a year or two than an MLB team, especially if you're willing to spend a ton of money on free agents.

 

And spending money on free agents is clearly not the way to go right now in baseball, anyway. Look at the Angels or Marlins. So there's no choice but to be patient. Sox fans are used to that. Not even the Yankees or Red Sox are going that route anymore.

 

This is a defense for Kenny Williams? If you can't build a team through free agency, why would you keep the general manager of the team who experts universally say has the worst farm system in MLB?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Marty34

[greg775]

We already established that the average LF OPS was right around .727 last year.

 

Fukudome put up a .723 against RHP last year.

 

He's unlikely to increase that.

 

Dayan Viciedo is ONLY 23 years old. You're totally precluding the fact that such a young player can actually improve/adapt/adjust to RHP in favor of a veteran who has absolutely nothing to do with the future of this organization.

 

If Dayan failed to hit RHP in the minors in 2011, you might have a point, but you can't judge a young player of his age based on a sum total of less than 300 cumulative MLB at-bats at age 21-22-23.

 

 

And if the team played that poorly and our attendance was only ahead of the Indians, then you'd be here everyday saying KW should be fired, lol.

 

Caufield, People blast my haiku style of posting, yet you haver all these spaces between paragraphs which makes me think it's an English paper.

What style do people like better?

Yours or mine?

I say this respectfully. I like your posts generally.

 

As far as Dayan, they might as well be patient with him. Look at the Angels. Pujols hasn't homered yet. Dayan has 3-4 at least. Nobody's gonna bury Albert yet.

Edited April 28, 2012 by greg775

[caulfield12]

This is a defense for Kenny Williams? If you can't build a team through free agency, why would you keep the general manager of the team who experts universally say has the worst farm system in MLB?

 

The majority of teams in baseball have been shifting philosophies in the last couple of seasons...away from free agency and towards minor league development.

 

For the majority of his tenure, KW was 90-95% win now and spin off minor league pieces for immediate dividends at the major league level.

 

Now the split has to be about 50/50 in order to pull off a combination of both.

 

In the case of the White Sox, it has been towards the development of starting pitchers. If they pull the plug on this change 5-10% of the way in, then all they're doing is setting themselves back another season.

 

It's not unlike dumping your mutual fund that's underperforming for the high-flyer from last year, selling low and buying high, then turning around and watching your new fund return to mean or below, then realizing to sell low again you would have been MUCH better off being patient and letting things play out with the 1st fund that you originally had faith in.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Caufield, People blast my haiku style of posting, yet you haver all these spaces between paragraphs which makes me think it's an English paper.

What style do people like better?

Yours or mine?

I say this respectfully. I like your posts generally.

 

As far as Dayan, they might as well be patient with him. Look at the Angels. Pujols hasn't homered yet. Dayan has 3-4 at least. Nobody's gonna bury Albert yet.

 

 

It's easier to read that way.

 

People don't have the patience to read long paragraphs anymore...so they can quickly hunt and peck at the main topics instead of reading all the way through an entire paragraph.

 

Visually, the haiku/poetry style doesn't tend to work well on a message board.

 

Dunn/Peavy/Rios suck. Rios is overpaid. Dunn, Beckham and Morel K too much. The White Sox suck at home and attendance sucks and nobody cares about the Sox. Ozzie is great/Ventura is probably going to be so-so at best.

 

We already know all those things. People like to go to boards to see new ideas, new perspectives, different ways of looking at things...information that the "average" fan doesn't have access to.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

The majority of teams in baseball have been shifting philosophies in the last couple of seasons...away from free agency and towards minor league development.

 

For the majority of his tenure, KW was 90-95% win now and spin off minor league pieces for immediate dividends at the major league level.

 

Now the split has to be about 50/50 in order to pull off a combination of both.

 

In the case of the White Sox, it has been towards the development of starting pitchers. If they pull the plug on this change 5-10% of the way in, then all they're doing is setting themselves back another season.

 

It's not unlike dumping your mutual fund that's underperforming for the high-flyer from last year, selling low and buying high, then turning around and watching your new fund return to mean or below, then realizing to sell low again you would have been MUCH better off being patient and letting things play out with the 1st fund that you originally had faith in.

 

This isn't a very good defense either. It would be better if you just wrote that you like Kenny Williams. Oh btw, has Viciedo proved he could hit right-handers in the minors? What are his career splits.

[caulfield12]

This isn't a very good defense either. It would be better if you just wrote that you like Kenny Williams. Oh btw, has Viciedo proved he could hit right-handers in the minors? What are his career splits.

 

 

You're the one who has the burden of proof here because you're proposing benching our best young hitter 65-70% of the time for a declining 35 year old, and you're going to base it on 70 at-bats from 2011 when he was clearly injured and suffering from the lingering effects of his wrist problems?

 

Obviously, the manager and the GM disagree with you, so it's kind of a moot point.

 

I don't like Kenny Williams. But you seem to have an irrational, visceral hatred or antipathy towards him. Why? What has he ever done to you?

 

I don't even mind Rick Hahn being the general manager, but to see someone repeatedly attacked when the "storyline" this season has always been about patience and development and "appreciating the game" doesn't make any sense. It's a sign of panic and not of stability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[greg775]

It's easier to read that way.

 

People don't have the patience to read long paragraphs anymore...so they can quickly hunt and peck at the main topics instead of reading all the way through an entire paragraph.

 

Visually, the haiku/poetry style doesn't tend to work well on a message board.

 

Dunn/Peavy/Rios suck. Rios is overpaid. Dunn, Beckham and Morel K too much. The White Sox suck at home and attendance sucks and nobody cares about the Sox. Ozzie is great/Ventura is probably going to be so-so at best.

 

We already know all those things. People like to go to boards to see new ideas, new perspectives, different ways of looking at things...information that the "average" fan doesn't have access to.

 

I disagree.

It takes too long to scroll down through your posts IMO.

You said: "We already know all those things. People like to go to boards to see new ideas, new perspectives, different ways of looking at things...information that the "average" fan doesn't have access to."

I said: Are you serious?? What "new ideas" of note get posted on the White Sox message board?

What are you talking about? Info the average fan doesn't have access too? Who on here is posting s*** like that?

 

[Marty34]

I don't like Kenny Williams. But you seem to have an irrational, visceral hatred or antipathy towards him. Why? What has he ever done to you?

 

Do I have to answer this?

 

On the other topic, you said Viciedo proved he could hit RH'ers in the minors. What are his career splits? (I don't know.)