Chris Sale is now the CLOSER?!/Until he's not (Update)

[Reddy]

Since we're going to talk about Kenny Williams as if he's never made a good move, let's just go ahead and mention all the good moves so we remember that he's actually done some good.

 

Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez for Jim Thome

Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez

Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin

Esteban Loaiza signing

Esteban Loaiza for Jose Contreras

Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton

Chris Sale draft pick

Signings in 2005 - AJ Pierzysnki, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Bobby Jenks

Extending Paul Konerko 2x

Brandon McCarthy for John Danks

Alexei Ramirez signing

Phil Humber signing

 

TBD:

Dunn signing

Peavy trade (didn't lose much), especially if insurance payouts were had

Quentin trade (injured, who would guess that)

Ozzie Guillen compensation players? (lol, not entirely serious)

 

this is all I can remember off the top of my head. There are some non-moves, like non-tendering Jenks, that stick out as well

 

of course he's done some good, but the position we're in, right now, in 2012, is also entirely his fault.

 

[Marty34]

Since we're going to talk about Kenny Williams as if he's never made a good move, let's just go ahead and mention all the good moves so we remember that he's actually done some good.

 

Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez for Jim Thome

Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez

Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin

Esteban Loaiza signing

Esteban Loaiza for Jose Contreras

Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton

Chris Sale draft pick

Signings in 2005 - AJ Pierzysnki, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Bobby Jenks

Extending Paul Konerko 2x

Brandon McCarthy for John Danks

Alexei Ramirez signing

Phil Humber signing

 

TBD:

Dunn signing

Peavy trade (didn't lose much), especially if insurance payouts were had

Quentin trade (injured, who would guess that)

Ozzie Guillen compensation players? (lol, not entirely serious)

 

this is all I can remember off the top of my head. There are some non-moves, like non-tendering Jenks, that stick out as well

 

Based on his body of work do you believe he deserves to continue as GM, why/why not?

[Reddy]

so i'm honestly in a state of shock and mourning at this. i really haven't ever been this upset about sports before in my life. it's weird. but it's because we had hope of replacing a guy like buehrle with a phenom kid like chris sale, and with this one single move we've now taken ourselves out of contention not only for this year but for the foreseeable future. as someone posted earlier, a rotation of Danks, Humber, Axelrod, Stewart, Santiago, Molina (take your pick) puts us on the level of Kansas City or Minnesota or Houston or any other bottom dweller team. It's just depressing. and with OUR anemic offense, mediocre pitching like that is too much of a challenge to overcome.

[Marty34]

so i'm honestly in a state of shock and mourning at this. i really haven't ever been this upset about sports before in my life. it's weird. but it's because we had hope of replacing a guy like buehrle with a phenom kid like chris sale, and with this one single move we've now taken ourselves out of contention not only for this year but for the foreseeable future. as someone posted earlier, a rotation of Danks, Humber, Axelrod, Stewart, Santiago, Molina (take your pick) puts us on the level of Kansas City or Minnesota or Houston or any other bottom dweller team. It's just depressing. and with OUR anemic offense, mediocre pitching like that is too much of a challenge to overcome.

 

Agreed. This decision, or the need for this decision, is a watershed moment for this franchise.

[Jake]

Based on his body of work do you believe he deserves to continue as GM, why/why not?

 

He's proven his mettle as a GM in the MLB.

 

We have had an opportunity (perhaps several) when letting him go would have been just fine. Coming into this season, letting him go would have made sense because we went "all in." Like in poker, you can't go all in without the risk of losing it all. He made a lot of moves that made sense and they blew up in his face. Some bad luck, some bad judgment, that's baseball. It is acceptable to get fired for that.

 

But we kept him and he's been effectively endorsed to rebuild the ship. If you're irritated that a couple months into rebuild that some of the old moves made under a different philosophy haven't panned out or worse, that we're not winning, you're not being fair. Coming into last year it seemed that we had several years of winning baseball ahead of us and we made moves accordingly. The future is not so clear now, though we do have several veterans having great years. We have to do things differently, including moves that might cost us games this year, to build a long term winner.

 

I hope Kenny can make things work and not "waste" this season because I'm a fan and I want to watch a contending team. I also understand that in a "rebuild" you are going to use unproven players and lots of them don't work out. It makes him look bad when that happens. Things like the ramifications of Chris Sale pitching in relief last year (the season we were supposed to win it all) are not things I'm going to lose my mind over now. We did things to win in the short term, it didn't work. We're now doing things to try and win in the long term. Changing regimes a couple months into the rebuild doesn't make sense to me, that will only prolong our suffering. I have seen Kenny build a winner fairly quickly around just a handful of veterans from a middling team, which is more than most or perhaps any of his potential successors could say.

 

Cliffs:

-you could have fired him after last season, perhaps other times as well

-you have committed some amount of time to him since you didn't do that

-firing him today or even at the end of this season is likely just adding on years to our potential non-contention

 

 

[Marty34]

-you could have fired him after last season, perhaps other times as well

-you have committed some amount of time to him since you didn't do that

-firing him today or even at the end of this season is likely just adding on years to our potential non-contention

 

I don't understand these three points as reasons for keeping him. Since he wasn't let go prior to this season, how has Chairman Reinsdorf committed to him? And how on earth does letting him go in the near future set the Sox back further?

[caulfield12]

You're telling me that Rick Hahn being named GM TODAY would or actually could somehow prolong the suffering?

 

Until 2017 or 2018 instead of 2015? Give me a break.

 

Those moves that KW made to salvage 2008 have ended up putting off the rebuild for four full years. But what's left of Quentin, Floyd, Danks and Alexei Ramirez?

 

Floyd has decent value, but not enough to get a potential frontline starter in return. Nobody would take Danks' contract today as is (like the Rios claim). Alexei Ramirez would get claimed based mostly on his defensive abilities, but the time to trade him to get the highest possible value in return has passed.

 

Without the good fortune of hitting the lottery simultaneously with all four of those guys, the rebuild could have started much sooner and we'd now be in a much better position instead of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

You're telling me that Rick Hahn being named GM TODAY would or actually could somehow prolong the suffering?

 

Until 2017 or 2018 instead of 2015? Give me a break.

 

Those moves that KW made to salvage 2008 have ended up putting off the rebuild for four full years. But what's left of Quentin, Floyd, Danks and Alexei Ramirez?

 

Floyd has decent value, but not enough to get a potential frontline starter in return. Nobody would take Danks' contract today as is (like the Rios claim). Alexei Ramirez would get claimed based mostly on his defensive abilities, but the time to trade him to get the highest possible value in return has passed.

 

Without the good fortune of hitting the lottery simultaneously with all four of those guys, the rebuild could have started much sooner and we'd now be in a much better position instead of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

Now you're crying about Ramirez? When I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think he's a lot older than what the record shows, you gave my post crap as you assumed it was a get rid of Ramirez post. I think you must be currently under the influence.

[caulfield12]

Now you're crying about Ramirez? When I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think he's a lot older than what the record shows, you gave my post crap as you assumed it was a get rid of Ramirez post. I think you must be currently under the influence.

 

Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane.

 

Ramirez has been declining every season offensively.

 

His OPS this season is around 500. He's gone from a franchise shortstop to one whose contract we will be lucky to move in another year or so.

 

As good as his defense is, we can't afford to have no offense from over half our line-up when you've got starters like Axelrod, Molina, Castro and Stewart to cover for.

[Balta1701]

I think you must be currently under the influence.

 

 

Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane.

Did y'all seriously miss me dropping warnings? Come on.

[Dick Allen]

Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane.

 

Ramirez has been declining every season offensively.

 

His OPS this season is around 500. He's gone from a franchise shortstop to one whose contract we will be lucky to move in another year or so.

 

As good as his defense is, we can't afford to have no offense from over half our line-up when you've got starters like Axelrod, Molina, Castro and Stewart to cover for.

I don't know what Walker has to do with this but if you check Ramirez's history, he's about where he usually is at through 26 games. In 2008 he didn't get his OPS to .500 until May 18th. In 2009 through 26 games his offensive numbers were identical to his numbers this year. In fact, his best "start" was last season. Through 26 games he was hitting .245. 2010 he basically had the same numbers he has now with a couple singles thrown in.

[caulfield12]

WHAT? No. That's not it. The 13th pick in the draft is on our team and will continue to contribute...we have control of him for years. If anything, Sergio Santos pitched just well enough that we were able to delicately develop Sale away from the tough closer's role (ala Reed right now).

 

Also still trying to figure out why we were supposed to get a future ace for an average closer with just a year's track record in Santos.

 

Chris Young - He and Adam Dunn are in a tight race for career batting average, stay tuned.What do they have in common, one plays CF, the other is or should be a full-time DH. A .765 career OPS out of CF for relatively little money (the average of his contracts since 2006) compared to the $50-60 million we paid or are paying Alex Rios, Anderson, Griffey, Erstad, Pods, Pierre, Mackowiak, etc. Do you know what the OPS out of CF for the Chicago White Sox from 2006-2011 is? I don't even want to embarass your argument with that statistic, it might not be believed.

 

Gio Gonzalez - Good player. We traded him for Thome (good deal) and Swisher (who you want back)Ozzie Guillen is able to get along with Swisher and we don't have to acquire Dunn. We don't have to acquire Dunn, we save millions of dollars and have another top outfield prospect in Brian Goodwin.

 

Clayton Richard - Well. He's had one good full season in a pitcher's park, missed half of another with injury, and is now 28 and off to a slow start.

Daniel Hudson - Promising young player, but again just one full season under his belt and a slow start underway. Traded him for a player you want.I'm glad you're not Hudson's agent in 2-3 years convincing an arbitration hearing of his worth. That's about the weakest description of a young/promising/affordable #2 starter that I've ever seen.

Edwin Jackson - Reliable starting pitcher/innings eater, the type of middle of the rotation production that you blasted Nestor Molina for projecting out to.You can quote me on this and bring it back someday. Nestor Molina will never throw a no-hitter, be considered the best pitcher on the White Sox for any stretch or come close to throwing a shutout or complete game in Chicago.

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) - who knows, just a prospectsure, and when we have almost none, that bodes so well for the future, doesn't it?

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE)

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE)

Mark Buehrle - He's old. Sorry, the Marlins gave him way more money than he's worth. Kenny would have been blasted for spending the money.If they had the choice today to bring back Buehrle under Danks' contract, a clear majority would pick that over Danks

Sergio Santos - Career 3.5 ERA in the bullpen, now at 28 years old in just his third season he's doing his best Hector Santiago impression.If you're going to go off the results of just a few games in 2012, then Ryan Sweeney will be the American League MVP and negate anything negative you said about Santos

Nick Swisher - Career .254 (.360 OBP) hitter that hits 20-30 HR/year and plays average defense in the corners. Played like s*** here and b****ed about getting benched for it. After that 35 HR season he seemed like he'd be great, but now he's over 30 and he's just an okay player.LOL...and we have how many of these "okay" hitters in our line-up right now, after Konerko?

Ryan Sweeney - Hardly has played full time in his career and never found the power stroke that would define his prospect status. Slugging a grand ol' .386 for his career.Traded because the Sox grew impatient...heaven forbid they give a 22-23 year old player with potential time to develop

Fautino DeLosSantos - His arm exploded as an A ball player after we traded him for a player you'd want back. Now he's 26 years old and just getting his first taste of middle relief.more depth at RH relief equals no need to waste more money on Jesse Crain when you're rebuilding from scratch

 

These players aren't that great??? Sure, it'd be nice to have another starting pitcher but we thought we had more than enough. I guess Swish/Sweeney might play over Viciedo but that's dumb, we want Viciedo there for 10 years. If Viciedo wasn't playing there he'd be on this list.

Edited May 5, 2012 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I don't know what Walker has to do with this but if you check Ramirez's history, he's about where he usually is at through 26 games. In 2008 he didn't get his OPS to .500 until May 18th. In 2009 through 26 games his offensive numbers were identical to his numbers this year. In fact, his best "start" was last season. Through 26 games he was hitting .245. 2010 he basically had the same numbers he has now with a couple singles thrown in.

 

And how does putting up good numbers every year from June on help the White Sox when they're already buried 10-15 GB in the standings?

 

Wouldn't you agree that the season was lost last year already at the point when we were 11-22?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

And how does putting up good numbers every year from June on help the White Sox when they're already buried 10-15 GB in the standings?

 

Wouldn't you agree that the season was lost last year already at the point when we were 11-22?

So the season is lost now? Last I checked they aren't 10 GB.

 

Apparently you are in the mode of trading everyone when their value is "peak". That's a nice way to build a team that will never win because your organization will be full of guys who aren't playing as well as they should because you would have rid yourself of all the "peak performers".

 

To expect this roster to win is silly. Stranger things have happened and they still have a shot, but expecting it is just someone trying to be pissed off.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Reddy]

So the season is lost now? Last I checked they aren't 10 GB.

 

Apparently you are in the mode of trading everyone when their value is "peak". That's a nice way to build a team that will never win because your organization will be full of guys who aren't playing as well as they should because you would have rid yourself of all the "peak performers".

 

To expect this roster to win is silly. Stranger things have happened and they still have a shot, but expecting it is just someone trying to be pissed off.

lets be clear. they do NOT have a shot with Sale in the bullpen.

[caulfield12]

So the season is lost now? Last I checked they aren't 10 GB.

 

Apparently you are in the mode of trading everyone when their value is "peak". That's a nice way to build a team that will never win because your organization will be full of guys who aren't playing as well as they should because you would have rid yourself of all the "peak performers".

 

To expect this roster to win is silly. Stranger things have happened and they still have a shot, but expecting it is just someone trying to be pissed off.

 

 

Check back with me in 14 games.

 

You're forgetting that we're starting Axelrod and Stults in consecutive games against the two best teams in the division.

 

2-8 easily goes to another 3-11 string on top of it and we're exactly where we were in 2011.

 

 

 

I'll make you a bet. If the White Sox are over .500 on July 31st, I won't ever say a positive thing about Don Cooper again. And what's your side of the bet so that we don't have to hear any more Greg Walker nonsense? Did you predict 72-90?

 

This team had a chance to compete with Sale in the rotation. If we were getting normal results out of our closer, we'd be 14-12 and only one game out of 1st.

 

But that calculus changed 180 degrees with Chris out of the rotation, replaced by a line of AAA/AA call-ups.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

You know what's really scary?

What if he's a lousy closer?

It was a pleasure to watch him start and completely make me forget bout Mark.

It's hard to be a fan of this team.

 

He'll fit right in.

 

[Jake]

You all have to admit, Sale as successful closer will make watching games easier. I wish he could go on to be the Cy Young this year, but if it's his arm falling off or this, I pick this. At least we won't be losing every game that we have 9th inning leads in. Time to try out all those "prospects" every 5th day, have to admit that that is somewhat fun to watch as well

[Princess Dye]

If that's what he has to be due to his frame, lets start his real MLB role then

 

Can regret using a pick on him of course but if he has value in a lesser innings pitched role then you can't look back

[kitekrazy]

Since we're going to talk about Kenny Williams as if he's never made a good move, let's just go ahead and mention all the good moves so we remember that he's actually done some good.

 

Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez for Jim Thome

 

Some would argue this is not good either. Meanwhile...........back to the original topic.

 

[caulfield12]

Gio's .152 BAA and 1.76 ERA say "hello!"

[elrockinMT]

Sale as a succesful closer is not a wasted draft pick. 12-15 wins as starter of saving 30-40 games where we have already seen struggling wanna be closer blow like 4 games or more? It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Let's hope the move works for the team and Chris Sale

[kitekrazy]

You all have to admit, Sale as successful closer will make watching games easier. I wish he could go on to be the Cy Young this year, but if it's his arm falling off or this, I pick this. At least we won't be losing every game that we have 9th inning leads in. Time to try out all those "prospects" every 5th day, have to admit that that is somewhat fun to watch as well

 

I've haven't been able to watch any games. I've read where giving Sale a limited pitch count as a starter would be better idea. Every problem in this organization seems to relate to having a weak farm system.

 

[fathom]

You all have to admit, Sale as successful closer will make watching games easier. I wish he could go on to be the Cy Young this year, but if it's his arm falling off or this, I pick this. At least we won't be losing every game that we have 9th inning leads in. Time to try out all those "prospects" every 5th day, have to admit that that is somewhat fun to watch as well

 

The question then becomes if there will be significantly less saves to blow if you have Axelrod or Stewart in the rotation and not Sale.

[iamshack]

You guys are all being a bit harsh, in my opinion...and if you were all as smart as you seem to think you are, you wouldn't be just posting on this message board to tell us about it.