max power Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 It is absolutely ridiculous to say that we are wasting reed at this point in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:42 AM) but you're not getting Jesus Montero like you could have a couple days ago. The Pineda situation mirrors this PERFECTLY. A team that saw a flaw, unloaded the guy, and walked away looking like a genius. That's part of what I'm saying, it's fluid. A week ago this board would have been in full meltdown if we traded Sale for Montero straight up. If Kenny decides to move Sale at the deadline, he might get a king's ransom. I wouldn't be shocked. Let's wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:43 AM) I agree...but let's see what we have first before we chalk all those games up as losses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:39 AM) also. caulfield knows more about baseball than 90% of this board, me included. if he's freaking out - i think it's legit. just sayin. I don't agree with any of this. Just sayin. He knows baseball just like the rest of us, I see nothing that puts him on a different level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:46 AM) That's part of what I'm saying, it's fluid. A week ago this board would have been in full meltdown if we traded Sale for Montero straight up. If Kenny decides to move Sale at the deadline, he might get a king's ransom. I wouldn't be shocked. Let's wait and see. he WONT because we already told the world "HEY THIS KID HAS A MECHANICAL FLAW AND HIS ELBOW HURTS" how are we gonna get a kings ransom for THAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Probably would have been a lot easier to think about "how nice it will be if it works out" if they didn't already have Reed in the system though. I said this after the Santos trade, but who cares about the back-end of your bullpen if you're going through a rebuilding process? Now, if KW and Jerry decide to spend money on upgrading the starting rotation after the year, then it's no longer in the rebuilding phase and having a good closer is important (Captain Obvious, I know). Well, there's your Moneyball 2.0 book to start working on. (Build backwards from dominant bullpen to then filling in the starting pitching around it). Trade Santos for a #3 starter in Molina, stand back and watch Santos fall apart or be ineffective due to injury while controlling Molina for 6 years. Turn 4 homegrown products (Sale/Reed/Jones/Santiago) into the modern-day equivalent of the Nasty Boys. Trade two veteran relievers you acquired at little or no cost (Thornton and Crain) and turn them into more serviceable cost-controlled starting prospects. Or Frasor for Webb and Jaye, as another example. Incubate future starters in the 6-7 spots (Axelrod, Stewart, P. Hernandez, Petricka, Santiago, Castro, etc.). Throw in a veteran loogy in Ohman for a little veteran stability and "grizzledness." A Matt Thornton/Christian Bale as Batman beard is helpful, although not full-blown like Dan Haggerty or Mr. Wilson on the Gigantes. FWIW, now with Axelrod on the roster, we have TEN (10) homegrown players on our roster, trailing only a handful of teams in MLB. The most was 13 coming into this season (Astros) and there are a couple of other teams I can't remember off the top of my head. Edited May 6, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (MAX @ May 6, 2012 -> 05:45 PM) It is absolutely ridiculous to say that we are wasting reed at this point in his career. I'd said this yesterday, but trading Reed for a 3rd baseman (cost-controlled) wouldn't be the dumbest thing in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:46 AM) he WONT because we already told the world "HEY THIS KID HAS A MECHANICAL FLAW AND HIS ELBOW HURTS" how are we gonna get a kings ransom for THAT? What should they have done, DL him with an "oblique strain?" This team doesn't operate like that. Sale still has value because he still has upside. There's a team out there that thinks they can fix him. There's a team out there that will give value to have a potentially dominant closer. We'll know in a couple months how valuable he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:44 AM) You posted yesterday that closers aren't valuable. Now they are wasting Reed not using him as a closer. closers are not worth the money they get. how many have already gone down or lost their closing spot this year alone? it's in the double digits already. literally any shortstop can become a closer. however, if you've got a guy playing for the minimum who's pitching lights out, given up no runs with an 11 k/9 - your BEST reliever - why not make him the closer and leave your best starter in the rotation? to have him stay as a set-up guy does strike me as a waste when you look at all the other potential around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:50 AM) What should they have done, DL him with an "oblique strain?" This team doesn't operate like that. Sale still has value because he still has upside. There's a team out there that thinks they can fix him. There's a team out there that will give value to have a potentially dominant closer. We'll know in a couple months how valuable he is. hahaha no other team has Don Cooper. They realize that if Coop can't fix him, no one can. and he doesn't have upside as a reliever. there's a reason he fell to us at 13th in the draft. mechanics, frame, injury concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:46 AM) I don't agree with any of this. Just sayin. He knows baseball just like the rest of us, I see nothing that puts him on a different level. Actually, I do respect Fathom's opinion about Ventura a lot more than my own about Williams because he's less emotional and prone to overreaction. But it's still in the "infancy" period of Robin's "training days" as a big league manager. And Marty34 is fun to go back and forth with when he's not deliberately trying to instigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 6, 2012 -> 04:50 PM) What should they have done, DL him with an "oblique strain?" This team doesn't operate like that. Sale still has value because he still has upside. There's a team out there that thinks they can fix him. There's a team out there that will give value to have a potentially dominant closer. We'll know in a couple months how valuable he is. From the sound of it, Sale had similar elbow soreness pitching out of relief last year as well. If the Sox knew they were going to put him back to closer at the first hint of soreness this year, then it's unlikely his trade value would ever be higher than it was this past offseason. There's also the theory that despite what's being said, this was more of a move to stabilize the closer role this year regardless of how healthy Sale is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) closers are not worth the money they get. how many have already gone down or lost their closing spot this year alone? it's in the double digits already. literally any shortstop can become a closer. however, if you've got a guy playing for the minimum who's pitching lights out, given up no runs with an 11 k/9 - your BEST reliever - why not make him the closer and leave your best starter in the rotation? to have him stay as a set-up guy does strike me as a waste when you look at all the other potential around him. Brian Anderson appears in a brief cameo to say "I can't!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 6, 2012 -> 04:52 PM) Actually, I do respect Fathom's opinion about Ventura a lot more than my own about Williams because he's less emotional and prone to overreaction. Wait, what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 The team also might not be ready to throw Reed into the fire. Maybe they don't want to rush him and possibly ruin him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:53 AM) From the sound of it, Sale had similar elbow soreness pitching out of relief last year as well. If the Sox knew they were going to put him back to closer at the first hint of soreness this year, then it's unlikely his trade value would ever be higher than it was this past offseason. There's also the theory that despite what's being said, this was more of a move to stabilize the closer role this year regardless of how healthy Sale is. Which only makes perfect sense if we've been sold a false bill of goods on Addison Reed. But that doesn't appear to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) closers are not worth the money they get. how many have already gone down or lost their closing spot this year alone? it's in the double digits already. literally any shortstop can become a closer. however, if you've got a guy playing for the minimum who's pitching lights out, given up no runs with an 11 k/9 - your BEST reliever - why not make him the closer and leave your best starter in the rotation? to have him stay as a set-up guy does strike me as a waste when you look at all the other potential around him. I mean no offense, but if Reed failed, posters such as yourself would likely be complaining that kenny (the devil) rushed him into the closers role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 6, 2012 -> 04:55 PM) The team also might not be ready to throw Reed into the fire. Maybe they don't want to rush him and possibly ruin him. That would make sense if Sale's move was temporary for a few months. A few of us said this the other day, but after listening to Hawk talk about the move, it would be shocking if Sale ever started for the Sox again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (MAX @ May 6, 2012 -> 04:56 PM) I mean no offense, but if Reed failed, posters such as yourself would likely be complaining that kenny (the devil) rushed him into the closers role. Wasn't there a poll on here before the season where Reed had the most votes as player that soxtalk wanted to close? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (MAX @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:56 AM) I mean no offense, but if Reed failed, posters such as yourself would likely be complaining that kenny (the devil) rushed him into the closers role. However, it's not like the situation with Sergio Santos, where he proved (or maybe earned is the better word) his way into the role over time. He was the closer at SDSU for Strasburg, all throughout the Sox minor league system and probably in high school as well. If he's not adequately prepared now, he never will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:44 AM) Perfect comparison When do you think Cashman will be interested in dealing with Seattle again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (MAX @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:56 AM) I mean no offense, but if Reed failed, posters such as yourself would likely be complaining that kenny (the devil) rushed him into the closers role. versus that kid from A ball? what was his name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ May 6, 2012 -> 11:58 AM) Wasn't there a poll on here before the season where Reed had the most votes as player that soxtalk wanted to close? I definitely remember a poll after the first or second blown save and he got about 85-90% of the votes. Of course, that wasn't factoring in Chris Sale as an option. That's where you would get a really interesting debate, and I'm sure it will happen the first time one or the other blows a save. Knowing the White Sox, Jeff Soptic will probably be the next closer after Reed/Sale. Or Bobby Jenks. Nathan Jones would work, too. Edited May 6, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ May 6, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) When do you think Cashman will be interested in dealing with Seattle again? who cares they got Jesus Montero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ May 6, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) When do you think Cashman will be interested in dealing with Seattle again? As soon as Felix is on the market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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