Chris Sale is now the CLOSER?!/Until he's not (Update)

[SoxAce]

Most relievers are failed starters (in the minors or majors). I still remember when LaTroy Hawkins was awful as a SP.

[caulfield12]

And yet, the Braves have the 3rd worst team ERA in the National League.

 

Only because Greg Walker hasn't yet been named hitting and pitching coach simultaneously.

[Dick Allen]

but dude, we've had elite 7-8-9 guys for YEARS and you know what? they're always DIFFERENT GUYS because they're good one year or 2 years and then flame out after that.

 

relievers are a dime a dozen. I promise you this. beyond Mo, Hoffman, .... and that's it... name me a closer who DIDN'T lose his job as closer at some point in his career. Those two guys are the exception to the very, very clear RULE that closers are NOT WORTH THE MONEY they get paid. and yes, I'll point you to Tampa and Texas as two teams with great scrapped together bullpens. JUST LIKE WE WERE IN 2005! Which of those guys is still a MLB pitcher?

Texas spent a ton of cash for Joe Nathan.

[Dick Allen]

Would people rather have a lockdown closer or today's version of Francisco Liriano?

Liriano is a starter so I guess he's far more valuable if you know baseball according to some.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

Texas spent a ton of cash for Joe Nathan.

 

The Rangers scrapped together bullpen has 4 guys making $4 million or higher.

[Texsox]

Since it is so easy to replace closers, might as well destroy him as a closer rather than as a starter.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Just smart spending, Dick Allen.

 

Nathan=$14.75 million for 2 years

Matt Thornton=$12 million for 2 years (considering they're getting a closer and we're getting a set-up guy, seems they're getting the better deal)

 

Total money invested into Feldman, Darvish, Harrison, Holland, Colby Lewis and N. Feliz=$153 million (2/3rd's to Yu Darvish, roughly)

[Dick Allen]

Just smart spending, Dick Allen.

 

Nathan=$14.75 million for 2 years

Matt Thornton=$12 million for 2 years (considering they're getting a closer and we're getting a set-up guy, seems they're getting the better deal)

 

Total money invested into Feldman, Darvish, Harrison, Holland, Colby Lewis and N. Feliz=$153 million (2/3rd's to Yu Darvish, roughly)

That's really scraping together a bullpen with dime a dozen pitchers.

[Dick Allen]

I guarantee if none of this news came out and Sale continued to pitch in the rotation and blew out his elbow, at least 95% of the people crying about his move to the bullpen would be up in arms at the White Sox for allowing his injury to occur. That includes the people who think right now he should continue to start until his elbow blows up.

[caulfield12]

The White Sox have $95 million in commitments to their rotation.

 

The Rangers are committed to JUST $45 million for Feldman, Lewis, N. Feliz, Harrison and Holland.

 

EFFICIENCY. Plus, with all the money pouring in, they just had $108 million sitting around in their coffers to throw at Darvish.

[caulfield12]

I guarantee if none of this news came out and Sale continued to pitch in the rotation and blew out his elbow, at least 95% of the people crying about his move to the bullpen would be up in arms at the White Sox for allowing his injury to occur. That includes the people who think right now he should continue to start until his elbow blows up.

 

 

How many times did the White Sox go the playoffs from 2001-2004 when they had no credible 5th starter?

 

Why should there be any reason to believe that would change now?

 

You're telling me our hitting on this team is significantly better than those years? I think not.

 

So why would there be any reason (other than sheer blind luck) for a White Sox historical pattern to reverse itself in the next 12-24 months?

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox have $95 million in commitments to their rotation.

 

The Rangers are committed to JUST $45 million for Feldman, Lewis, N. Feliz, Harrison and Holland.

 

EFFICIENCY. Plus, with all the money pouring in, they just had $108 million sitting around in their coffers to throw at Darvish.

We are talking about the bullpen. Get a grip. The argument is bullpens are a dime a dozen, that you shouldn't waste pitchers with talent by putting them in the bullpen. Does anyone not get Sale can't handle the rotation physically?

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Rangers scrapped together bullpen has 4 guys making $4 million or higher.

 

GMAB. They promoted Neftali Feliz, who's making like 500K, to the rotation. Ogando, who's been their best reliever so far, is making under 500 K. Mark Lowe is under 2 million. Robbie Ross is making peanuts. The other guys were through trades as they were making back-2-back World Series runs. They haven't wasted any real resources in assembling their bullpen.

[Dick Allen]

How many times did the White Sox go the playoffs from 2001-2004 when they had no credible 5th starter?

 

Why should there be any reason to believe that would change now?

 

You're telling me our hitting on this team is significantly better than those years? I think not.

 

So why would there be any reason (other than sheer blind luck) for a White Sox historical pattern to reverse itself in the next 12-24 months?

They had a great shot in 2003 if they had a better closer than Billy Koch, the actually were in 1st place the middle of September,and btw, their 5th starter at the begining of 2003 that year was the All Star game starter. 2004, they were right there, at least for a playoff berth, but did lose Maggs and the Big Hurt.

 

2005 their 5th starter was El Duque who was lucky to even make the postseason roster. Not exactly reliable.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

We are talking about the bullpen. Get a grip. The argument is bullpens are a dime a dozen, that you shouldn't waste pitchers with talent by putting them in the bullpen. Does anyone not get Sale can't handle the rotation physically?

 

 

The point ALSO is that having an ELITE/SUPERSTAR/NASTY BOYS/WORLD-BEATING bullpen does you absolutely no good with a so-so starting rotation on a rebuilding team.

 

What, is Mel Allen going to give us bonus points from the grave for leading the Rolaids Relief Team Bullpen stat in 2012? That's kind of like the Cubs' "attendance trophy" every season.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

The point ALSO is that having an ELITE/SUPERSTAR/NASTY BOYS/WORLD-BEATING bullpen does you absolutely no good with a so-so starting rotation on a rebuilding team.

 

What, is Mel Allen going to give us bonus points from the grave for leading the Rolaids Relief Team Bullpen stat in 2012? That's kind of like the Cubs' "attendance trophy" every season.

Then keep Sale in the rotation, let him blow out his elbow and watch what caulfield aka Mitt Romney complains about then.

 

Also, the nasty boys won a WS and we have Don Cooper to develop a #5 starter. Shouldn't be too tough, the 2005 #5 starter had a 5.12 ERA

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

GMAB. They promoted Neftali Feliz, who's making like 500K, to the rotation. Ogando, who's been their best reliever so far, is making under 500 K. Mark Lowe is under 2 million. Robbie Ross is making peanuts. The other guys were through trades as they were making back-2-back World Series runs. They haven't wasted any real resources in assembling their bullpen.

 

It's not a scrapped together bullpen like Tampa. They signed an old closer as a FA for $7 million a year. They traded for two proven set-up guys, who both make $4+ million a year. That's $15 million right there, not counting Feldman's $6.5 mil as the long man. I wouldn't say they haven't wasted any real resources, not many teams could spend that much on a bullpen. The fact that they can afford it due to their other moves is another discussion.

[caulfield12]

They had a great shot in 2003 if they had a better closer than Billy Koch, the actually were in 1st place the middle of September,and btw, their 5th starter at the begining of 2003 that year was the All Star game starter. 2004, they were right there, at least for a playoff berth, but did lose Maggs and the Big Hurt.

 

2005 their 5th starter was El Duque who was lucky to even make the postseason roster. Not exactly reliable.

 

 

Danny Wright 1-7, 6.15 ERA

Josh Stewart 1-2, 5.96 ERA

Mike Porzio, 1-1, 6.43 ERA

Neal Cotts, 1-1, 8.10 ERA

 

4-11

 

 

So, you're going to tell me that Dylan Axelrod, Stults, Simon Castro, Pedro Hernandez, Santiago and Nestor Molina are going to be a significant improvement there??

[Dick Allen]

Danny Wright 1-7, 6.15 ERA

Josh Stewart 1-2, 5.96 ERA

Mike Porzio, 1-1, 6.43 ERA

Neal Cotts, 1-1, 8.10 ERA

 

4-11

 

 

So, you're going to tell me that Dylan Axelrod, Stults, Simon Castro, Pedro Hernandez, Santiago and Nestor Molina are going to be a significant improvement there??

I think they are capable of putting up the same numbers El Duque put up in 2005. If Keith Foulke was the Sox closer in 2003, I think they would have won the division.

[caulfield12]

Then keep Sale in the rotation, let him blow out his elbow and watch what caulfield aka Mitt Romney complains about then.

 

Also, the nasty boys won a WS and we have Don Cooper to develop a #5 starter. Shouldn't be too tough, the 2005 #5 starter had a 5.12 ERA

 

 

You're really going to compare that Reds' team with this White Sox team? Now who's the one who is drinking?

 

 

Molina, Stewart, Hernandez, Santiago etc., have been either in our system for less than one full season or starters for barely more time than that. But what Greg Walker couldn't manage to change in a decade can be undone in a matter of days and weeks by Cooper, that's not a completely impossible standard.

 

And it helps to have guys with major league TALENT and ABILITY to develop.

 

 

And since when is PHT the Slam Section? I voted for Obama, but I bet I could find 100 times since he has been president that he's flip-flopped his position. Bill Clinton was famous for it.

 

And, what have I changed my position on exactly? For the whole offseason, I consistently supported Kenny Williams against the likes of Marty34. You will see no wavering, go through every single thread if you'd like.

 

Now, I have thrown in the towel. As opposed to Romney, if Obama came out for protecting the American flag from being burned by protestors, Romney would come out for flag burning the next day.

 

 

[gatnom]

And no one here knows all of the information that the Sox are privy too. Just sayin.

 

I keep seeing posts like this, and I keep wondering to myself, what information could the Sox be privy to that would allow this decision to make any sense? If Sale is feeling sore, put him on the DL for awhile and see where he is afterwards. If at that point you feel like it's in his best interest to make him a reliever, do so, but claiming that he will be able to avoid the injury just by moving to the pen is dubious at best.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I think they are capable of putting up the same numbers El Duque put up in 2005. If Keith Foulke was the Sox closer in 2003, I think they would have won the division.

 

 

Horseshoes and hand grenades, Dick.

 

If if if they'd only signed Kenny Rogers that offseason instead of letting him go to the Twins.

 

If if if the White Sox had kept Thome away from the Twins in 2010 and signed him instead of Jones/Kotsay.

 

If if if the Sox had signed Victor Martinez instead of Adam Dunn coming into 2011.

 

If if if Rick Hahn's son's coin flip when the other way, then KW would be out of a job, Game 163 would have been a loss and a major disappointment.

[ptatc]

Danny Wright 1-7, 6.15 ERA

Josh Stewart 1-2, 5.96 ERA

Mike Porzio, 1-1, 6.43 ERA

Neal Cotts, 1-1, 8.10 ERA

 

4-11

 

 

So, you're going to tell me that Dylan Axelrod, Stults, Simon Castro, Pedro Hernandez, Santiago and Nestor Molina are going to be a significant improvement there??

Your point is valid. However, what you don't seems to want to believe is that the Sox do not think Sale can handle the stress of starting. If Sale wasn't having problems they would leave him in the rotation. It's not a case of where he best fits. It's a case of do you want him on the team in the bullpen or in the operating room.

[Dick Allen]

You're really going to compare that Reds' team with this White Sox team? Now who's the one who is drinking?

 

 

Molina, Stewart, Hernandez, Santiago etc., have been either in our system for less than one full season or starters for barely more time than that. But what Greg Walker couldn't manage to change in a decade can be undone in a matter of days and weeks by Cooper, that's not a completely impossible standard.

 

And it helps to have guys with major league TALENT and ABILITY to develop.

 

 

And since when is PHT the Slam Section? I voted for Obama, but I bet I could find 100 times since he has been president that he's flip-flopped his position. Bill Clinton was famous for it.

 

And, what have I changed my position on exactly? For the whole offseason, I consistently supported Kenny Williams against the likes of Marty34. You will see no wavering, go through every single thread if you'd like.

 

Now, I have thrown in the towel. As opposed to Romney, if Obama came out for protecting the American flag from being burned by protestors, Romney would come out for flag burning the next day.

I think you might have lost your mind. Ripping Greg Walker again. Check out the Braves offense.

[Marty34]

I don't disagree with the decision because I don't believe the baseball people had much, if any, say it in it. The evidence to Schnieder must have been pretty overwhelming that Sale's arm would not be able to withstand the stress of being a starter. Given Schnieder's track record for keeping pitcher's healthy that's good enough for me.

 

My questions about the decision are these:

 

1.) Was Sale's ability to be a starter overlooked when they drafted him because he'd be able to help out in the bullpen during the pennant race in 2010?

2.) Was Reed converted to a started because they felt Sale would eventually be in the rotation?

3.) I don't like the idea of a lefty closer. Did they name him closer to to take the heat off making the move or placate Sale? In my view, Sale is best suited for the Matt Thornton role. Unlike Thornton though, I think he should be allowed to close when the match up dictates.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Marty34