Chris Sale is now the CLOSER?!/Until he's not (Update)

[max power]

Wasn't there a poll on here before the season where Reed had the most votes as player that soxtalk wanted to close?

I think so. I know he won the recent poll on who should take over for santiago.

 

My point is that a lot of posters take issue with kenny's foresight, saying he is wrong for everything in the world, even though its yet to be determined if he is wrong or even behind the move.

 

Then in hindsight they say what happened, certainly happened because kenny did something, even though we don't know if that is the reason or cause, or if he was even behind the move.

 

Its giving me a headache.

 

Game is starting. Go sox.

Edited May 6, 2012 by MAX

[Reddy]

I think so. I know he won the recent poll on who should take over for santiago.

 

My point is that a lot of posters take issue with kenny's foresight, saying he is wrong for everything in the world, even though its yet to be determined if he is wrong or even behind the move.

 

Then in hindsight they say what happened, certainly happened because kenny did something, even though we don't know if that is the reason it happened, or if he was even behind the move.

 

Its giving me a headache.

i've been a huge kenny williams supporter. i've never been one of those who likes to bash him at every turn. if the search function worked i could prove that, or you could look it up.

 

however, at this juncture, a huge mistake is being made.

[iamshack]

who cares they got Jesus Montero

Not a good idea...the Yankees are one of the teams that are willing to take on contracts.

[max power]

i've been a huge kenny williams supporter. i've never been one of those who likes to bash him at every turn. if the search function worked i could prove that, or you could look it up.

 

however, at this juncture, a huge mistake is being made.

I'm not laying this all on you or on one poster in particular. I don't know everything that was said.

 

I just feel there is a bad vibe here rooted in that illogical line of thought.

[Reddy]

Not a good idea...the Yankees are one of the teams that are willing to take on contracts.

nah, if the yanks have a need and the mariners can help them with it, they'll still talk. it would be even dumber not to.

[iamshack]

nah, if the yanks have a need and the mariners can help them with it, they'll still talk. it would be even dumber not to.

Oh they'll talk alright...but you're not getting anymore studs without sending over a lot more sure things than Pineda.

 

 

[jamesdiego]

I completely understand the reason for people being very disappointed with the Sale news. But what I don't understand the theory that the Sox brass are only doing this only to stabilize the closer situation. Or that some feel this is just a bad option the Sox are taking, that they don't really have to do this.

 

At this point, I think the Sox feel that there is no other option. I will keep faith in Herm, Coop's and the rest of the Sox brass knowledge and opinion here. I'm sure there is some more info to this than we know, but I believe they are telling the truth in that they feel Sale is doomed to injuring himself very soon as a starter. It's just ridiculous to suggest that the Sox would not prefer to have Sale being their darling ace of the future. They just feel he can't. I don't fault them one bit for thinking that

 

Now I would be very pissed if they don't try and change Sale's mechanics some so he may have another shot at starting in the future.

[Reddy]

I completely understand the reason for people being very disappointed with the Sale news. But what I don't understand the theory that the Sox brass are only doing this only to stabilize the closer situation. Or that some feel this is just a bad option the Sox are taking, that they don't really have to do this.

 

At this point, I think the Sox feel that there is no other option. I will keep faith in Herm, Coop's and the rest of the Sox brass knowledge and opinion here. I'm sure there is some more info to this than we know, but I believe they are telling the truth in that they feel Sale is doomed to injuring himself very soon as a starter. It's just ridiculous to suggest that the Sox would not prefer to have Sale being their darling ace of the future. They just feel he can't. I don't fault them one bit for thinking that

 

Now I would be very pissed if they don't try and change Sale's mechanics some so he may have another shot at starting in the future.

 

they don't feel he can without risking injury. my feeling is that if you have to build up arm strength by risking injury, then so be it. if you lose a year Chris Sale to TJ surgery with the benefit having 10 more years of dominant post-TJ pitching, you take it. Every time.

[Dick Allen]

they don't feel he can without risking injury. my feeling is that if you have to build up arm strength by risking injury, then so be it. if you lose a year Chris Sale to TJ surgery with the benefit having 10 more years of dominant post-TJ pitching, you take it. Every time.

I don't know where you get your information that TJ surgery is no big deal and everyone comes back stronger for it and isn't subject to the same injury occurring again. See Liriano, Francisco for one. If it were true, teams would have pitchers undergo the surgery the day they were signed.

[knightni]

Wainwright is struggling coming off of TJ.

[fathom]

Wainwright is struggling coming off of TJ.

 

Second one though

[Reddy]

Wainwright is struggling coming off of TJ.

7.0 7 1 1 1 7 line today. he'll get it together. he's just rusty.

[Reddy]

I don't know where you get your information that TJ surgery is no big deal and everyone comes back stronger for it and isn't subject to the same injury occurring again. See Liriano, Francisco for one. If it were true, teams would have pitchers undergo the surgery the day they were signed.

you've got liriano, i'll raise you a stephen strasburg, erik bedard, chris capuano, chris carpenter, jaime garcia, tim hudson, phil humber, Izzy, josh johnson, shaun marcum, jamie moyer, john smoltz, billy wagner, edinson volquez, CJ wilson, jordan zimmermann, brian wilson, ryan voglesong.

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

also. caulfield knows more about baseball than 90% of this board, me included. if he's freaking out - i think it's legit.

 

just sayin.

 

And no one here knows all of the information that the Sox are privy too. Just sayin.

[Jake]

You just don't intentionally waste a year plus of a pitcher's career in hopes that he will come back from the injury better than before. Too much risk involved, not to mention you are getting a year or more of zero production from that player. You also don't usually change a pitcher's mechanics at this point in his career, you take a huge risk of ending their effectiveness.

 

He is what he is.

[Reddy]

You just don't intentionally waste a year plus of a pitcher's career in hopes that he will come back from the injury better than before. Too much risk involved, not to mention you are getting a year or more of zero production from that player. You also don't usually change a pitcher's mechanics at this point in his career, you take a huge risk of ending their effectiveness.

 

He is what he is.

then why do you intentionally waste a dude's entire potential career as an ace starter on a hunch? lets see... 40 innings a year or 200... which is more valuable...?

 

at this point in his career? he's 23... there are pitchers who have changed their mechanics in their 30s. see Fatolo and Freddy Garcia. you hear of guys changing their arm slots all the time.

[jamesdiego]

I don't think the book is just yet closed on Strasburg, we'll see how long he can last. Found a really good article breaking down Strasburg's mechanics and Tommy John surgery. Rizzo doesn't believe his mechanics caused his injury and are not gonna change anything. Verducci brought up other pitchers with mechanic issues who had TJS

 

I then gave Rizzo a lengthy list of pitchers with the same mechanical glitch as Strasburg and what happened to them: Kerry Wood (Tommy John), B.J. Ryan (Tommy John), Joel Zumaya (fractured elbow), Jeremy Bonderman (shoulder), Shaun Marcum (Tommy John), Anthony Reyes (Tommy John), Jake Peavy (torn back muscle), Jordan Zimmermann (Tommy John) and, most recently, Adam Wainwright (Tommy John).

 

None of them -- at least those with enough of a post-surgery history -- were ever quite the same pitchers again. Smoltz might come closest, but he had his surgery at age 33 and, because a switch to closing was considered to keep him healthier, pitched only three more seasons as a full-time starter.

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writ...l#ixzz1u7nj1Pvb

 

 

 

I don't think it's a given Sale can come back from TJS without any future issues without working on his mechanics.

[Jake]

then why do you intentionally waste a dude's entire potential career as an ace starter on a hunch? lets see... 40 innings a year or 200... which is more valuable...?

 

at this point in his career? he's 23... there are pitchers who have changed their mechanics in their 30s. see Fatolo and Freddy Garcia. you hear of guys changing their arm slots all the time.

 

The problem is it's not just a hunch -- he's already hurt. His velocity is dropping, now throwing fastballs in the 80s. Let him flourish in the bullpen and not have those issues.

[Reddy]

I don't think the book is just yet closed on Strasburg, we'll see how long he can last. Found a really good article breaking down Strasburg's mechanics and Tommy John surgery. Rizzo doesn't believe his mechanics caused his injury and are not gonna change anything. Verducci brought up other pitchers with mechanic issues who had TJS

 

 

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writ...l#ixzz1u7nj1Pvb

 

 

I don't think it's a given Sale can come back from TJS without any future issues without working on his mechanics.

totally. it's obviously not a GIVEN, but my opinion the risk of an injury is worth taking if the benefit is having an ace starter. he could still blow out his arm as a closer.

[fathom]

So would people blame KW, Ventura and Herm if Sale goes to the bullpen and blows out his elbow in the next month? Seems odd they haven't done an MRI.

[Jake]

So would people blame KW, Ventura and Herm if Sale goes to the bullpen and blows out his elbow in the next month? Seems odd they haven't done an MRI.

 

This is the oddest part. Just look at it, it's not like resources are limited. Keep it on file to compare later. Maybe they're going to do that and just aren't going to talk about it -- weird that they hadn't at the time they made this decision though

[jamesdiego]

totally. it's obviously not a GIVEN, but my opinion the risk of an injury is worth taking if the benefit is having an ace starter. he could still blow out his arm as a closer.

 

 

I would rather see them try to work on his mechanics before he goes and try starting again. Why just go and blow out his arm and see him gone for a yr with TJS, when he could possibly avoid it if they fix his mechanics.

[Kyyle23]

The thing that bothers me is this: when has a pitcher ever been fixed/healed by being sent to the pen?

 

To me, this is like Rose and his knee. If his elbow is going to blow, it is going to blow. Babying him isn't going to help it. I would rather him take a few weeks off and come back to the rotation and see if the pain comes back. If it comes back, aggressive treatment and a doctor andrews visit. Going to the pen to me is just silly.

[Jake]

The thing that bothers me is this: when has a pitcher ever been fixed/healed by being sent to the pen?

 

To me, this is like Rose and his knee. If his elbow is going to blow, it is going to blow. Babying him isn't going to help it. I would rather him take a few weeks off and come back to the rotation and see if the pain comes back. If it comes back, aggressive treatment and a doctor andrews visit. Going to the pen to me is just silly.

 

Smoltz has been suggested as an example

[Dick Allen]

The thing that bothers me is this: when has a pitcher ever been fixed/healed by being sent to the pen?

 

To me, this is like Rose and his knee. If his elbow is going to blow, it is going to blow. Babying him isn't going to help it. I would rather him take a few weeks off and come back to the rotation and see if the pain comes back. If it comes back, aggressive treatment and a doctor andrews visit. Going to the pen to me is just silly.

Its being assumed that there is nothing that needs fixing now, but if they continue on the same path, something real bad will happen. He might still get hurt, but its probably safe to assume his chances of avoiding the knife is best served coming out of the bullpen.

 

The White Sox have more information than we have. They also would rather have Sale as a starter than reliever. They didn't make this decision on a whim.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Dick Allen