Marty34 is at least half right

[fathom]

Not to mention it took McCarthy 5 years before he finally put it together

 

Yep, just like with Gio, it's pretty far-fetched to think that KW would have waited long enough for McCarthy to turn into a solid MLB pitcher. I remember watching Gio in his first year in Oakland, and it wasn't pretty at all.

[caulfield12]

Michael Morse.

 

That's why KW should be fired. Not Jeremy Reed. Cowley, Marty and Greg Walker predicted he would breakout as a 30/100 guy a decade ago.

[Kyyle23]

Yep, just like with Gio, it's pretty far-fetched to think that KW would have waited long enough for McCarthy to turn into a solid MLB pitcher. I remember watching Gio in his first year in Oakland, and it wasn't pretty at all.

 

Gio also brought back Jim Thome, I would have KW make that trade again in a heartbeat

[Kyyle23]

Michael Morse.

 

That's why KW should be fired. Not Jeremy Reed. Cowley, Marty and Greg Walker predicted he would breakout as a 30/100 guy a decade ago.

 

And just think, all the guy needed was to roid up and bounce around the minors for 5 years as well

[caulfield12]

Yep, just like with Gio, it's pretty far-fetched to think that KW would have waited long enough for McCarthy to turn into a solid MLB pitcher. I remember watching Gio in his first year in Oakland, and it wasn't pretty at all.

 

 

But that's kind of accepting the same type of mentality that we don't have the patience to wait on 99.8% of the players we draft to develop.

 

We've never had a Gooden, Strawberry or Harper that was ready to dominate from the get-go.

 

Of course, in my mind, there's a difference between Ryan Sweeney and Morel. Sweeney has/had higher upside, we just didn't have nearly enough time to wait for the strength/power to come into his game. But he always had that pretty swing, the talent and ability was there at least. And maybe he'll never be anything more than a lesser version of Mark Grace but in RF, but he's definitely playing a major role on the Red Sox and carrying a 933 OPS through regular play.

 

We traded Ryan Sweeney when he was still just 22 years old. Brent Morel is already 25.

 

We gave up on Daniel Hudson after 3 major league starts at about the same age. You can't keep sacrificing the long-term in order to leverage short-term results or it will catch up to you, in the perfect storm of diminishing payroll, overpaid veterans in their 30's and not enough talent in the farm system simultaneously.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2012 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Gio also brought back Jim Thome, I would have KW make that trade again in a heartbeat

 

 

Who KW allowed Ozzie to talk him into letting go, when it probably made the biggest difference in deciding the 2010 ALCD.

 

A good GM doesn't let his manager dictate his roster, the GM exerts his will on the manager (see Beane vs. Howe).

[fathom]

But that's kind of accepting the same type of mentality that we don't have the patience to wait on 99.8% of the players we draft to develop.

 

We've never had a Gooden, Strawberry or Harper that was ready to dominate from the get-go.

 

Of course, in my mind, there's a difference between Ryan Sweeney and Morel. Sweeney has/had higher upside, we just didn't have nearly enough time to wait for the strength/power to come into his game. But he always had that pretty swing, the talent and ability was there at least. And maybe he'll never be anything more than a lesser version of Mark Grace but in RF, but he's definitely playing a major role on the Red Sox and carrying a 933 OPS through regular play.

 

We traded Ryan Sweeney when he was still just 22 years old. Brent Morel is already 25.

 

We gave up on Daniel Hudson after 3 major league starts at about the same age. You can't keep sacrificing the long-term in order to leverage short-term results or it will catch up to you, in the perfect storm of diminishing payroll, overpaid veterans in their 30's and not enough talent in the farm system simultaneously.

 

KW and company have done a good job of being proactive in trading some of their young player if they feel the player is never going to live up to their potential. It's pretty obvious they had concerns about Sweeney developing power, Olivo struggling to call a game, etc. I have no problem with selling high on young players, especially in a system that has really struggled to develop home-grown offensive players. This is also why it stinks that our minor league system is so bad now, as it gives Kenny a lot fewer bullets to use to obtain Major League pieces.

[fathom]

We gave up on Daniel Hudson after 3 major league starts at about the same age. You can't keep sacrificing the long-term in order to leverage short-term results or it will catch up to you, in the perfect storm of diminishing payroll, overpaid veterans in their 30's and not enough talent in the farm system simultaneously.

 

Yes, Daniel Hudson was the one player who I think Kenny made too impulsive of a decision to trade. I feel like we'll never know the whole story of the EJax trade.

[Kyyle23]

But that's kind of accepting the same type of mentality that we don't have the patience to wait on 99.8% of the players we draft to develop.

 

We've never had a Gooden, Strawberry or Harper that was ready to dominate from the get-go.

 

Of course, in my mind, there's a difference between Ryan Sweeney and Morel. Sweeney has/had higher upside, we just didn't have nearly enough time to wait for the strength/power to come into his game. But he always had that pretty swing, the talent and ability was there at least. And maybe he'll never be anything more than a lesser version of Mark Grace but in RF, but he's definitely playing a major role on the Red Sox and carrying a 933 OPS through regular play.

 

We traded Ryan Sweeney when he was still just 22 years old. Brent Morel is already 25.

 

Not at all Caulfield, it is accepting that you have to give something of value(Gio, Sweeney, etc) to get something of value(Thome, Swisher). Im sure you werent sitting there b****ing about being patient with Gio when Thome was hitting his game 163 homerun over the batters eye. Sometimes prospects pan out, sometimes they dont. If a prospect pans out 5 years after the trade is made, you dont hold that against the GM.

 

now Hudson for Jackson, well that is a different story. Hudson made an immediate impact at the major league level and it was extremely shortsighted. But those other trades you are complaining about are just ridiculous. What has Ryan Sweeney really done at the major league level that makes you regret that he isnt in the system? The guy has a career .286 batting average with no power(14 career HR!!!), has gotten over 50 RBi once and has been on the DL many times. Hell, the guy has never played over 134 games, and averages 70 games a season. And what, this is the guy you want as your corner outfielder?

[Kyyle23]

Who KW allowed Ozzie to talk him into letting go, when it probably made the biggest difference in deciding the 2010 ALCD.

 

A good GM doesn't let his manager dictate his roster, the GM exerts his will on the manager (see Beane vs. Howe).

 

GMAFB Caulfield. 4 years after he was acquired. You dont then count Gio as a loss because Ozzie is a f***ing idiot and didnt want to keep Thome

[Kyyle23]

KW and company have done a good job of being proactive in trading some of their young player if they feel the player is never going to live up to their potential. It's pretty obvious they had concerns about Sweeney developing power, Olivo struggling to call a game, etc. I have no problem with selling high on young players, especially in a system that has really struggled to develop home-grown offensive players. This is also why it stinks that our minor league system is so bad now, as it gives Kenny a lot fewer bullets to use to obtain Major League pieces.

 

Olivo should NEVER be counted as a loss. Freddy Garcia was well worth the price paid

[fathom]

Not at all Caulfield, it is accepting that you have to give something of value(Gio, Sweeney, etc) to get something of value(Thome, Swisher). Im sure you werent sitting there b****ing about being patient with Gio when Thome was hitting his game 163 homerun over the batters eye. Sometimes prospects pan out, sometimes they dont. If a prospect pans out 5 years after the trade is made, you dont hold that against the GM.

 

Again, totally agree. The package we gave up for Swisher wasn't the bad part of the deal. It was the seemingly lack of scouting at his ability to play CF/leadoff and whether or not he'd get along with the core group of veterans in the clubhouse and Ozzie.

[Kyyle23]

Again, totally agree. The package we gave up for Swisher wasn't the bad part of the deal. It was the seemingly lack of scouting at his ability to play CF/leadoff and whether or not he'd get along with the core group of veterans in the clubhouse and Ozzie.

 

Obviously we will never know the truth, but to me it seems pretty obvious that Swisher didnt fit in and it carried over to the field. That is a personality scouting issue. When Swisher was acquired i really dont remember many people complaining about the price

[caulfield12]

Just using my "wrestling persona" the last 2-3 days, lol. (See, I'm playing Devil's Advocate and forcing KW to be defended).

 

Actually, the one and only thing I'm sure of is that Sale to the bullpen is the final straw in supporting KW. The rest is debateable.

[caulfield12]

Obviously we will never know the truth, but to me it seems pretty obvious that Swisher didnt fit in and it carried over to the field. That is a personality scouting issue. When Swisher was acquired i really dont remember many people complaining about the price

 

 

And, in fact, his long-term contract at the time of the trade was looked at as a huge plus at the time of the acquisition, until it quickly wasn't after just 4 months.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Obviously we will never know the truth, but to me it seems pretty obvious that Swisher didnt fit in and it carried over to the field. That is a personality scouting issue. When Swisher was acquired i really dont remember many people complaining about the price

When they acquired Swisher and Cabrera, they made it a point to say they needed some vocal guys in the clubhouse. There have been plenty of posts through the years with posters being pissed at Konerko for not being a loudmouth. It was ironic, that even though that team won the division, KW couldn't get rid of those 2 fast enough.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

When they acquired Swisher and Cabrera, they made it a point to say they needed some vocal guys in the clubhouse. There have been plenty of posts through the years with posters being pissed at Konerko for not being a loudmouth. It was ironic, that even though that team won the division, KW couldn't get rid of those 2 fast enough.

 

 

The whole our "leadership fell apart when Rowand and Everett departed" argument for the Sox downfall after 2005.

 

I prefer the Uribe/Crede/Curse of 2008 one, though.

[Marty34]

Is the Floyd trade the last clear winning trade for KW? Was an excellent trade, but that was way back in 12/06.

[fathom]

Is the Floyd trade the last clear winning trade for KW? Was an excellent trade, but that was way back in 12/06.

 

Quentin for Carter

[Dick Allen]

Quentin for Carter

Definitely. If that trade wasn't made, the Sox probably don't win the division in 2008, A whole lot might have been different. Ozzie might have been gone sooner, Rick Hahn might be the GM.

[witesoxfan]

his K/9 this year is at a career low. so... the stats DONT prove otherwise, and it is you, sir, who is on a roll.

 

Through 12 f***ing innings. If he strikes out the side in his next outing, he's right back to 9 K/9.

 

I mean, I'm pissed about Sale too. It's stupid and there are so many reasons I'm upset. You don't have to take it out on Matt Thornton. He's just fine.

[Reddy]

Through 12 f***ing innings. If he strikes out the side in his next outing, he's right back to 9 K/9.

 

I mean, I'm pissed about Sale too. It's stupid and there are so many reasons I'm upset. You don't have to take it out on Matt Thornton. He's just fine.

i mean i agree. i think he's great as a set up guy, always has been, always will be. now having Sale just makes it so damn crowded back there. it's stupid.

[witesoxfan]

i mean i agree. i think he's great as a set up guy, always has been, always will be. now having Sale just makes it so damn crowded back there. it's stupid.

 

I don't disagree with this.