Marty34 is at least half right

[Reddy]

i approve of this thread.

[Dick Allen]

And how many hits like that has he given up in crucial situations since he was acquired?

 

He can't miss bats when the opposing batters are waiting on a straight fastball (ahead in the count)...he has the worst knack for attracting swinging bunts, flares, bloopers, bleeders, infield singles into holes, broken bats, Texas Leaguers, shanks, but they ALWAYS seem to happen to him in critical situations!!!

 

It's a mathematical certainty with Thornton because of his arsenal, which is essentially 1 pitch most of the time.

 

I guess we'll see how valuable he really is when KW puts him on the open market. He has zero value to this organization going forward, except for acquiring prospects and/or clearing his salary from the payroll.

Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.

[caulfield12]

Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.

 

 

He especially does a great job missing Travis Hafner's bat, or Jim Thome's bat, or Peralta's bat, haven't you noticed?

 

Overall statistics can mask or hide the reality...when the game's on the line with Thornton out there in the 9th inning in a tie game, with the lead or with opposing runners in scoring position, something can and usually will go wrong.

 

 

[Reddy]

Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.

his K/9 this year is at a career low. so... the stats DONT prove otherwise, and it is you, sir, who is on a roll.

[Jake]

There's nothing to make me think that Matt Thornton won't thrive in a setup role.

 

For some reason, in innings 6-8 hitters don't know how to hit a guy that throws all fastballs. They just never hit him. In inning 9, all gets solved.

[elrockinMT]

We are struggling a bit and have lost I think 8 of the last 11 or maybe it's 9 of the last 11. I can't remember. All I konw is it is more fun to win. We should all step back a bit instead of biting each others heads off because we don't agree with someone's take on things. It is a long season and no reason to make it longer with all this fightng back and forth.

 

Now for the original post topic and that is how Marty is right half the time. Well, ok but is he right the half the time he might write something you agree with or wrong half the time when he doesn't? I sure feel strongly both ways about that.

Edited May 5, 2012 by elrockinMT

[elrockinMT]

Kenny Williams: Domino Effect

How The Want of a Top Starting Pitcher (Javy Vazquez) Perpetually Destroyed a Minor League System

 

 

I liked your take on this and the follow up conversations

[Jerksticks]

The sooner we part ways with Kenny Williams, the better off we are for the future.

 

This latest debacle with Chris Sale was foreseeable a mile away. You would think he might have learned with Santos? Traded him for what looks like the equivalent of another Nick Blackburn in Molina who will at best be a 4th or 5th starter. So he's going to turn Sale into another Santos then trade him away, too, but only after he signs a long-term extension, so everyone can wonder what the hell is going on in Chicago?

 

For the future, they'd actually be better off just giving Sale a pre-emptive TJ surgery before he ruptures the elbow at some point in the indeterminate future and then have to wait another year more until he can start again. Of course, you can't force Chris to do that against his will.

 

They've taken an A ball pitcher from a year ago who just started to build and gain in confidence, named him the closer because they apparently didn't have enough depth in Thornton and Ohman (and because they didn't want to or couldn't pay Frasor) and messed him up. Santiago should be starting at Birmingham or Charlotte, doesn't matter where. He's not a reliever going forward, especially with Sale now doomed to the pen.

 

Put Sale into Thornton's role and make Reed the closer. Trade Thornton to the highest bidder. Rinse, repeat, do the same thing with Jesse Crain when he comes back and proves himself and gets his FB back to 93-96.

 

 

So they've already moved around or messed up Beckham (2 changes), Viciedo (3-4 changes), Santiago and Chris Sale. Who's next?

 

All because our GM left us dangerously lacking in depth at the major league level by making idiotic trades like the Mark Teahen move, then signing him to an extension, then having to trade away our best pitcher last year at the break because Williams just wanted to dump his mistake from the roster.

 

Other than DeAza, Humber and Santos (and the jury's still out because at least 50% of us believe Molina will end up another Zach Stewart and Marco Paddy another Dave Wilder minus the bribes and gay night clubs), absolutely nothing KW has done has worked out.

 

At a certain point, it's not just bad luck (Peavy/Dunn/Rios), it's bad decision-making, planning and strategic thinking.

 

This is the biggest crisis for the White Sox since the White Flag, signing Albert Belle and going with "The Kids Can Play" campaign.

 

This offseason, the whole future of this organization was tied into the performances of Sale, Morel, Viciedo, Beckham and Molina. Even with Dunn, Rios and Peavy contributing, there's still way too many holes if you remove Sale from the rotation and that's also assuming Beckham and Viciedo hit.

 

It's gotten to the point the last week or so with Danks showing diminished velocity (hope and pray it's a "dead arm" and not something else) and Alexei Ramirez an OPS in the 400's...you just start to wonder what else can go wrong with this organization?

 

There are some glimmers of hope in Phegley, Mitchell, Saladino, Thompson, Castro...but we need some minor miracles now to contend in 2014.

 

 

1) Good trades (crosses fingers, hopefully no other GM could be THIS bad)

2) Reed and/or Jones to become a lockdown closer

3) Santiago/Castro/Molina/Axelrod/Hernandez (2 of them) to become competent big leaguers

4) Viciedo/Beckham/Morel and Flowers/Phegley (one or the other) to make it

 

P.S. Zach Stewart sucks, thanks for nothing Marco Paddy!

 

This just assumes so much it makes me sick. None of your points are the absolutes that you make them out to be.

[oldsox]

Caulfield, you wrote a couple of the best posts I have ever read at SoxTalk.

[Marty34]

With the Sale news, it's very difficult to see how the state of the franchise gets better before things get worse.

[SI1020]

Excellent analysis here, better than anything I've seen anywhere else to date. KW really has lost his mojo, the evidence is hard reality that just slaps you in the face when you look at it. I don't have much faith in the current regime to right the ship.

[greg775]

Wow, greg. I'll always like you. But it's clearly apparent now that you want the Sox to suck because your hero is no longer manager. You're not fooling anybody in the gamethreads. Juan Pierre? Really? lol. That's not going to last long. Phillies fans already despise him because of his total ineptitude on the basepaths.

 

 

<!--quoteo(post=2591219:date=May 5, 2012 -> 12:47 AM:name=greg775)-->

<!--quotec-->Dwyane Wise is on the New York Yankees and got a hit tonight and Juan Pierre is hitting .330 for Philly.

Underrated around here.

Troll! You may have everyone else fooled but not me.

 

How the f*** is Dwayne Wise relevant to anything here? Oh wait, he got a hit last night so he must be underrated right? He's neither good or young, so what is your f***ing point? Thanks for the "catch", but otherwise f*** you Dwayne Wise.

 

As for Juan Pierre, there is nothing underrated about a slappy leadoff hitter who has no power, doesn't walk, is not an effective base stealer, has a noodle arm, and is afraid of pop flies. Nothing in the slightest. I don't give a f*** if he was the first one to the stadium everyday with his lunchpail to perfect that slap swing of his. Juan at this point in his career is nothing more than an empty batting average.

 

But clearly both players needed to be brought up for no apparent reason. Thank you troll for adding a little more anger to an already terrible sports day here in Chicago.

 

1.) You are crazy if you think I want the Sox to lose and Robin to fail. Would I rather have Ozzie? Absolutely. I'm not following the Marlins; not even following Mark except as a casual fan with the box scores, updates if I hear he's 1-4 or something.

2 and 1.) Those who think I'm a troll need to get a new schtick. I brought up Pierre and Wise become somebody else did first. Yes I will stand up for players that i like. The New York Yankees obviously agree with me that Wise is a valuable guy to have. Pierre is what he is (cliche) but he's not the devil.

 

The first Wise comment was from Caufield saying: "DeWayne Wise is only remembered by Greg775 and Mark Buehrle." I responded, so I'm a troll.

Edited May 5, 2012 by greg775

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Caulfield, you're right the Sox are a mess and it's mostly KW's fault. Maybe it's the pressure to always win now. You don't win fans don't show up. That's evident through Sox history which endangers the franchises' place in the city.

 

Like many I'll still watch and hope they win . I won't think too much about the future because none of us is promised tomorrow. Hope things improve but if not there's always 2005 to smile and be grateful about.

[Marty34]

Caulfield, you're right the Sox are a mess and it's mostly KW's fault. Maybe it's the pressure to always win now. You don't win fans don't show up. That's evident through Sox history which endangers the franchises' place in the city.

 

The thing is, they'd likely be more profitable in a rebuilding situation than they are now. "All In" was a farce because it depended so much on Peavy coming back from surgery as an ace and that was if Dunn had hit as normal.

 

KW has overstated the talent on this team to the fanbase for years then when one of his mediocre creations of the last 3-4 years goes on a bit of a hot streak, he can't wait to get to the microphones and chastise the fans for not showing up. Ultimately those teams don't make the playoffs and you don't hear from him again. Of course there was nothing wrong with the talent.

 

The Danks contract extension is exhibit A of how arrogant this organization is in it's decision making. Nobody made what they deemed an acceptable offer for Danks so almost as if to prove other teams wrong they sign him to a $65M contract.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The thing is, they'd likely be more profitable in a rebuilding situation than they are now. "All In" was a farce because it depended so much on Peavy coming back from surgery as an ace and that was if Dunn had hit as normal.

 

KW has overstated the talent on this team to the fanbase for years then when one of his mediocre creations of the last 3-4 years goes on a bit of a hot streak, he can't wait to get to the microphones and chastise the fans for not showing up. Ultimately those teams don't make the playoffs and you don't hear from him again. Of course there was nothing wrong with the talent.

 

The Danks contract extension is exhibit A of how arrogant this organization is in it's decision making. Nobody made what they deemed an acceptable offer for Danks so almost as if to prove other teams wrong they sign him to a $65M contract.

 

 

Well you're looking at Williams whereas I'm looking at the franchise history. 1919, 1959, 1983. From 1919 to 1983 that encompassed 50 years of my dads life and 25 of mine and what did the Sox do in that time? One thrown World Series , one lost World series and a division win. Fast forward to 1993 another 10 years on my dad's and my life another division winner , no World Series win. Fast Forward 2005 finally a World Series win. For 100 years and closer to 200 years combined Chicago baseball fans got 1 World series win. Williams was a big part of that. We're one up on the Cubs any way. I can't get too upset about a few years and series of moves that hasn't panned out the way all of us armchair GM's would like.

 

Is firing KW the right move? Who knows .You will never know the answer to that question .Can't see the future of a new GM versus how the future would go with KW as GM.

Edited May 5, 2012 by knightni

[Marty34]

Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.

[fathom]

Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.

 

I can't see how anyone could argue differently

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.

The time to move on was after the last out of 2005. That's always the case. No resting on one shining moment in 90 years . But forget ? Never.

[JorgeFabregas]

Floyd wildly erratic and maddeningly inconsistent

Floyd is no more erratic or inconsistent than virtually any other starting pitcher. You can pretty much pencil him in for ~190 innings and an fWAR between 3.5 and 4.5.

Edited May 6, 2012 by JorgeFabregas

[caulfield12]

Floyd is no more erratic or inconsistent than virtually any other starting pitcher. You can pretty much pencil him in for ~190 innings and an fWAR between 3.5 and 4.5.

 

 

But with his talent and his arsenal of pitches, he could or even SHOULD be great, a #1 or #2 starter. Since he was drafted, that's been his curse to live up to.

 

Blame it all on Don Cooper, right, for Floyd's "underachieving" and the accusations of being a "mental midget" that crop up from time to time?

 

 

[JorgeFabregas]

I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill)

 

 

KW lost/traded:

Chris Young

Gio Gonzalez

Clayton Richard

Daniel Hudson

Edwin Jackson

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Mark Buehrle

Sergio Santos

Nick Swisher

Ryan Sweeney

Fautino DeLosSantos

Javy Vazquez

Jason Frasor

Jim Thome

 

They got Zach Stewart, Mark Kotsay, Andruw Jones, Manny Ramirez, Nestor Molina, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, LHP Santos Rodriguez, waiver/release candidate Jon Gilmore, Jaye/Webb (Blue Jays) and three albatross contracts (check that, POSSIBLY FOUR, if you add John Danks to the list).

You'd have to actually have an accurate list of players lost or added for this list to make any sense at all. If you're going to include free agents not re-signed, then you need to include all free agents signed. Including Chris Young in this list suggests that you're going back to the pre-2006 off-season unless you're just cherry-picking. So you're missing acquisitions like Floyd, Danks, A. Ramirez, Humber, Sale, De Aza, etc.

 

It also doesn't make sense to make a list of ALL players lost during that time as if they never gained them to begin with. Acquire Thome in 2006 and then lose him in 2009? Put him in the loss category. You're going to have more players lost than kept over time, as you can only have so many players on a single roster. If you pick any team and count their players lost since 2006, there are going to be more than players on their current roster/in their current system. And you could then cherry pick the good players from the "lost" list.

Edited May 6, 2012 by JorgeFabregas

[caulfield12]

You'd have to actually have an accurate list of players lost or added for this list to make any sense at all. If you're going to include free agents not re-signed, then you need to include all free agents signed. Including Chris Young in this list suggests that you're going back to the pre-2006 off-season unless you're just cherry-picking. So you're missing acquisitions like Floyd, Danks, A. Ramirez, Humber, Dunn, Sale, De Aza, etc. You're missing most of the useful players on the current roster, in fact. So you're just cherry picking.

 

 

You can add Dunn, although you wouldn't have "dunn" that 3 weeks ago.

 

Even if he performs at his statistical averages for the next three seasons, we're not getting anything resembling a great rate of return (overall), plus we lost the draft picks.

 

You're right, I didn't include Freddy Garcia on the "lost/missing" list. Thanks for that reminder.

 

Ramirez and Viciedo were signed as FA's, they weren't on the other side of the transactions involving the players I listed.

 

Humber and DeAza (and you can add Santos to that ledger)...and Sale, so they're once again not involved in the transactions the players I listed were.

 

And yeah, you could put Brandon McCarthy in "lost/missing" and John Danks' now seemingly bad contract on the other side of the ledger (if we're going to now count Dunn as a good or positive contract to have on the books, then Danks has to be put in the "bad" column based on April, right?)

[JorgeFabregas]

And yeah, you could put Brandon McCarthy in "lost/missing" and John Danks' now seemingly bad contract on the other side of the ledger (if we're going to now count Dunn as a good or positive contract to have on the books, then Danks has to be put in the "bad" column based on April, right?)

John Danks has years of service with the White Sox and has racked up 16 fWAR. You can't compare the two at all. Again, you're going to have more players lost than added over time if the only players you count as added are the ones on the current roster.

Edited May 6, 2012 by JorgeFabregas

[Kyyle23]

I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill)

 

 

KW lost/traded:

Chris Young

Gio Gonzalez

Clayton Richard

Daniel Hudson

Edwin Jackson

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Mark Buehrle

Sergio Santos

Nick Swisher

Ryan Sweeney

Fautino DeLosSantos

Javy Vazquez

Jason Frasor

Jim Thome

 

This list is hilarious. How can you hold against KW the draft picks that were acquired as compensation for Dunn? Just because of their ranking within the organization? De Los Santos? He of the 33 major league innings and blown out elbow? Holmberg has never been in the bigs.

 

There are plenty of reasons that KW could lose his job, but this list is a joke

 

[Kyyle23]

John Danks has years of service with the White Sox and has racked up 16 fWAR. You can't compare the two at all. Again, you're going to have more players lost than added over time if the only players you count as added are the ones on the current roster.

 

Not to mention it took McCarthy 5 years before he finally put it together