Selling off parts?

[LittleHurt05]

I can say with the utmost confidence that's bulls***. Florida doesn't give a s*** about baseball. Never has, never will.

 

This is the truth. As I have posted in the Miami Marlins thread, the only "sports" that matter in Florida are NASCAR & college football.

[Dick Allen]

I can say with the utmost confidence that's bulls***. Florida doesn't give a s*** about baseball. Never has, never will.

I would say the market probably isn't the best. The ballpark is hard to get to, but not being able to draw 10k is a problem for a team with that roster. They don't have the fanbase a successful team should have, and he could be very right that's part of the reason. Look what happened in Cleveland. They sold out for years, got bad for a long time and now are lucky to get 15k a game even when their team is good. People found something else to do and may never be back.

 

I truly believe if the Cubs ever get down to 15-20k a night regularly, they won't get to their pre Sox WS title levels until they win a WS, even if the team is good. Eventually the hot restaurant or hot nightclub isn't so hot anymore. I think the same thing might happen with baseball teams.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

I can say with the utmost confidence that's bulls***. Florida doesn't give a s*** about baseball. Never has, never will.

 

That still doesn't explain places like Oakland and Toronto which do have past histories of drawing fans.

[caulfield12]

I remember when KW acquired an $11 million a year #5 starter, people were fine with that. So if Danks is a #3, his contract appears to be right in line.

 

And if the Sox totally bottomed out and got rid of all their top players, you would still be complaining, and there is no guarantee the rebuild will work. The guy pointed out that long rebuilds tend to lose you fans forever. He said one reason TB can't draw 10k is because they were bad so long, people became disinterested forever.

 

People have no patience with the current young guys on the Sox roster. They will have no patience if the entire line up was full of these types of players. They would stop caring all together.

 

 

That was at a time when JR was willing to open the purse strings and the fans were coming out to support the team because they were putting a good product on the field.

 

Nothing can be worse than this current oblivion we're mired in. Even a GM throwing darts against the wall with a blindfold on has to get something useful back for Floyd, Crain, Thornton, AJ, Alexei, Konerko, Dunn, Danks, etc.

 

With the White Sox generating SO MUCH MORE MONEY than any of those other 6 teams from media rights, with their valuation at #10 in all of baseball, with a pretty inelastic market in terms of season ticket/suite buyers (corporate side) who will be supporting the team indefinitely into the future, they're financially in a much better position to weather the coming storm. Arguably, the Dodgers' sale price (over 20 interested groups in on the sale at one point or another) and upcoming national baseball renegotiated contract dollars/revenue sharing puts the real value of the team in the $900 million to $1 billion range.

 

But seriously. what's the difference between 72-90 with John Danks on the roster and 65-97 without Danks? Will there be ANY difference in attendance? I sincerely doubt it. Moving up 5 spots in the first round of the draft will be much more valuable than then negligible difference in ticket revenues lost from being a semi-horrible team compared to a REALLY horrific one.

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

That was at a time when JR was willing to open the purse strings and the fans were coming out to support the team because they were putting a good product on the field.

 

Nothing can be worse than this current oblivion we're mired in. Even a GM throwing darts against the wall with a blindfold on has to get something useful back for Floyd, Crain, Thornton, AJ, Alexei, Konerko, Dunn, Danks, etc.

 

With the White Sox generating SO MUCH MORE MONEY than any of those other 6 teams from media rights, with their valuation at #10 in all of baseball, with a pretty inelastic market in terms of season ticket/suite buyers (corporate side) who will be supporting the team indefinitely into the future, they're financially in a much better position to weather the coming storm. Arguably, the Dodgers' sale price (over 20 interested groups in on the sale at one point or another) and upcoming national baseball renegotiated contract dollars/revenue sharing puts the real value of the team in the $900 million to $1 billion range.

 

But seriously. what's the difference between 72-90 with John Danks on the roster and 65-97 without Danks? Will there be ANY difference in attendance? I sincerely doubt it. Moving up 5 spots in the first round of the draft will be much more valuable than then negligible difference in ticket revenues lost from being a semi-horrible team compared to a REALLY horrific one.

 

Its funny you're now crying about money when you jab me all the time for saying the Sox weren't being straight in April of 2009 saying they had nothing to spend. Seriously, change your name to Mitt.

 

And if nothing can be worse than where they are at right now, there's nothing from stopping you from paying any attention. If the entire situation bothers you that much, you should spend your hours doing something you might enjoy. Its not like JR is going to read your posts and give you a call for more of your opinions.

 

Getting really bad only makes sense if you know the process of getting better will be short. It was short last time because they acquired 4 studs in the draft, and all were contributing by the time the season ended when the 4th player was chosen. That doesn't happen often.Obviously WS or bust is KW's motto, but there is value in seasons when the Sox don't win the division. It keeps people interested in your product.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

That still doesn't explain places like Oakland and Toronto which do have past histories of drawing fans.

 

 

Another team that had great attendance, went through a down period and got back at least 50% of their fans (compared to the Indians, Blue Jays and Mariners examples) is Colorado.

 

The Brewers have done a great job moving from a largely-irrelevant small market team to a perennial powerhouse. It's not impossible.

 

And even in the 1980's/early 90's and then again in the late 90's/early 00's, the A's NEVER drew huge crowds. And even though Beane hasn't been very good recently, I credit him for sticking his neck out with the Cespedes signing. You have to take a risk to get a superstar player when the odds are more likely it will go bust and really end up hurting a small-market team for years to come.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Another team that had great attendance, went through a down period and got back at least 50% of their fans (compared to the Indians, Blue Jays and Mariners examples) is Colorado.

 

The Brewers have done a great job moving from a largely-irrelevant small market team to a perennial powerhouse. It's not impossible.

 

And even in the 1980's/early 90's and then again in the late 90's/early 00's, the A's NEVER drew huge crowds. And even though Beane hasn't been very good recently, I credit him for sticking his neck out with the Cespedes signing. You have to take a risk to get a superstar player when the odds are more likely it will go bust and really end up hurting a small-market team for years to come.

If Milwaukee didn't have a roof, they wouldn't have the attendance they have.

[caulfield12]

Its funny you're now crying about money when you jab me all the time for saying the Sox weren't being straight in April of 2009 saying they had nothing to spend. Seriously, change your name to Mitt.

 

And if nothing can be worse than where they are at right now, there's nothing from stopping you from paying any attention. If the entire situation bothers you that much, you should spend your hours doing something you might enjoy. Its not like JR is going to read your posts and give you a call for more of your opinions.

 

 

Says the same poster who seems more concerned with a hitting coach no longer associated with our organization.

 

If you want, just go ahead and put me on ignore. Your telling me I can't be a fan or that somehow you're a more optimistic fan or a diehard believer in Kenny Williams' ability and strategic vision to right the foundering ship is a bit laughable.

 

For all your conspiracy financial theories, I'll say touche....JR could care less what you've posted as well, for that matter, who cares, it's only a sport, it's not life or death, right? But let me get this straight. This season, why have you been posting here with the same consistent message...are you really thinking that you will change people's minds? What's the point?

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I would say the market probably isn't the best. The ballpark is hard to get to, but not being able to draw 10k is a problem for a team with that roster. They don't have the fanbase a successful team should have, and he could be very right that's part of the reason. Look what happened in Cleveland. They sold out for years, got bad for a long time and now are lucky to get 15k a game even when their team is good. People found something else to do and may never be back.

 

I truly believe if the Cubs ever get down to 15-20k a night regularly, they won't get to their pre Sox WS title levels until they win a WS, even if the team is good. Eventually the hot restaurant or hot nightclub isn't so hot anymore. I think the same thing might happen with baseball teams.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it at all. The Rays haven't been around 15 years yet. Do you really believe a reason the Rays can't draw despite the amazing success they've had is because they sucked in 2004? No way.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Jordan4life

[Dick Allen]

Sorry, I don't buy it at all. The Rays haven't been around 15 years yet. Do you really believe a reason the Rays can't draw despite the amazing success they've had is because they sucked in 2004? No way.

No, the years from 1998-2007 when 91 losses was their best season. Putting it in perspective, the 2007 White Sox had a better record than any Rays team their first 10 seasons. If your team is awful for its first 10 years of existence, you may have lost at least one generation of fans, if not more.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

I truly believe if the Cubs ever get down to 15-20k a night regularly, they won't get to their pre Sox WS title levels until they win a WS, even if the team is good. Eventually the hot restaurant or hot nightclub isn't so hot anymore. I think the same thing might happen with baseball teams.

 

That's not gonna happen unless they move to Schaumburg or Theo tears down the ivy & scoreboard. The place has become such a historical novelty & tourist sight, their numbers will never get that low. They have had a minimum of 25k since the mid 80s.

[Jordan4life_2007]

No, the years from 1998-2007 when 91 losses was their best season. If your team is awful for its first 10 years of existence, you may have lost at least one generation of fans, if not more.

 

Nobody expects an expansion team to do anything in their first 5 years or so. Yeah, it took them a while (aka Andrew Friedman taking over). But there's no way in hell any practical fans would be demanding a winner right away. Especially in their division. This argument might've been passable in 2008 when many thought they were a 1-year wonder. But it's 2012 now. They're legit and they're set up for the long haul. There's lots of reasons you can point to for their crummy attendance. Being bad pre-Friedman just isn't one of them.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Jordan4life

[Dick Allen]

Nobody expects an expansion team to do anything in their first 5 years or so. Yeah, it took them a while (aka Andrew Friedman taking over). But there's no way in hell any practical fans would be demanding a winner right away. Especially in their division. This argument might've been passable in 2008 when many thought they were a 1-year wonder. But it's 2012 now. They're legit and they're set up for the long haul. There's lots of reasons you can point to for their crummy attendance. Being bad pre-Friedman just isn't one of them.

The Arizona Diamondbacks say hello. If you don't think a decade of horrificness hasn't done anything to harm their fanbase, you are being naive. People who would have been fans had they at least been competitve, moved on to other things. Its happened in Toronto, its happened in Cleveland, and it would most likely happen on the South Side of Chicago.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Arizona Diamondbacks say hello.

 

That's a special case. Look how that team was put together.

[southsider2k5]

The Arizona Diamondbacks say hello. If you don't think a decade of horrificness hasn't done anything to harm their fanbase, you are being naive. People who would have been fans had they at least been competitve, moved on to other things. Its happened in Toronto, its happened in Cleveland, and it would most likely happen on the South Side of Chicago.

 

And it would happen much quicker.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Arizona Diamondbacks say hello. If you don't think a decade of horrificness hasn't done anything to harm their fanbase, you are being naive. People who would have been fans had they at least been competitve, moved on to other things. Its happened in Toronto, its happened in Cleveland, and it would most likely happen on the South Side of Chicago.

 

White Sox attendance already sucks, though. How much worse is is supposed to get?

[southsider2k5]

White Sox attendance already sucks, though. How much worse is is supposed to get?

 

It has been plenty lower than this.

[LittleHurt05]

The Arizona Diamondbacks say hello. If you don't think a decade of horrificness hasn't done anything to harm their fanbase, you are being naive. People who would have been fans had they at least been competitve, moved on to other things. Its happened in Toronto, its happened in Cleveland, and it would most likely happen on the South Side of Chicago.

 

I think you are over-estimating the strength of the Sox fanbase anyway. Other than the opening of the new park and the 2-3 years after the WS title, Sox attendance has always been pretty crappy. It's more returning to the norm, not disappearing forever. Eventually someone will produce a winner and the fans will come back, that's White Sox baseball.

 

Cleveland had the longest sell-out streak in baseball history and now is in last place in attendance, that's a way more extreme example.

Edited May 8, 2012 by LittleHurt05

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think you are over-estimating the strength of the Sox fanbase anyway. Other than the opening of the new park and the 2-3 years after the WS title, Sox attendance has always been pretty crappy. It's more returning to the norm, not disappearing forever. Eventually someone will produce a winner and the fans will come back, that's White Sox baseball.

 

Cleveland had the longest sell-out streak in baseball history and now is in last place in attendance, that's a way more extreme example.

 

Exactly. Listening to Dick Allen, 2K5, and the anti-rebuild crowd - this franchise should've never recovered from the '94 strike. That was much worse. By '99, the payroll was like $20 million and the Sox were as irrelevant as just about any team in baseball. I'd say they recovered quite well.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Jordan4life

[southsider2k5]

Exactly. Listening to Dick Allen, 2K5, and the anti-rebuild crowd - this franchise never should've never recovered from the '94 strike. That was much worse. By '99, the payroll was like $20 million and the Sox were as irrelevant as just about any team in baseball. I'd say they recovered quite well.

 

Great point. It took them 12 years to recover those numbers. I don't feel like a decade long rebuilding plan.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Great point. It took them 12 years to recover those numbers. I don't feel like a decade long rebuilding plan.

 

The White Sox don't have to win a World Series to get out of their current situation.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm in favor of not panicking OOTP '13 style. We aren't winning anything this year. The most important thing we have to do this year is get a read on the kids in our organization to decide what to do with them. Are guys like Gordon, Dayan, Brent, Addison, Dylan, etc, every day major league ballplayers? Get them their reps and AB's. If someone comes along and blows away Kenny for one of the veterans that is one thing, but there is nothing to be gained as a franchise by freaking out on May 7 and having a fire sale.

 

 

See, we actually agree on this. I think all of those guys need to be playing as well. I wish Viciedo was playing every day and not giving up time for Fukudome. I wish Reed was closing. My point was just that guys like Thornton, Ohman, Crain, Floyd, Peavy etc will not be on the roster the next time the Sox win a World Series. Meaning, they get dealt hopefully. The only things I was looking forward to this year were Reed closing, Sale starting, Viciedo playing every day, and what we could get in trade for our veterans.

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox don't have to win a World Series to get out of their current situation.

 

Why not? Nothing in the 12 years between 94 and 06 worked, despite having some very good teams, including a division winner.

[southsider2k5]

See, we actually agree on this. I think all of those guys need to be playing as well. I wish Viciedo was playing every day and not giving up time for Fukudome. I wish Reed was closing. My point was just that guys like Thornton, Ohman, Crain, Floyd, Peavy etc will not be on the roster the next time the Sox win a World Series. Meaning, they get dealt hopefully. The only things I was looking forward to this year were Reed closing, Sale starting, Viciedo playing every day, and what we could get in trade for our veterans.

 

Fukodome has 42 ABs in 30 games. That projects to something like 200 ABs over a season. That is normal for a bench guy. Viciedo has been in 26 of 30 games.

[Dick Allen]

Why not? Nothing in the 12 years between 94 and 06 worked, despite having some very good teams, including a division winner.

As a matter of fact, a couple of homestands ago the Sox had their smallest crowd since 2005, the year they won the WS and never were not in first place. So people weren't even sold back then.

 

Until the consensus of soxtalk can show they have patience with guys like Beckham and Morel and Viciedo, which up until now is non existent, there is no way the same people will have patience with a total rebuild.