Ground Up Human Baby Pills

[Steve9347]

How do u justify those seeing the bright light in a near death experience and those people who say their relatives were coming into the light to welcome them before God let them return to earth miraculously.

Justify? Do you mean "how do I comprehend realistic scenarios that don't involve living in clouds"?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthne...xperiences.html?

 

Doctors believe that a burst of brain activity occurs just before death and this could account for vivid "spiritual" experiences reported by those who come back from the brink.

 

The researchers suggest this surge could be why some patients who have been revived when close to death report sensations such as walking towards a bright light or a feeling that they are floating above their body.

 

“We think the near-death experiences could be caused by a surge of electrical energy released as the brain runs out of oxygen,” said Dr Lakhmir Chawla, an intensive care doctor at George Washington University medical centre in Washington.

 

“As blood flow slows down and oxygen levels fall, the brain cells fire one last electrical impulse. It starts in one part of the brain and spreads in a cascade and this may give people vivid mental sensations.”

 

Many revived patients have reported being bathed in bright light or suffused with a sense of peace as they start to walk into a light-filled tunnel.

A few even say they experienced visions of religious figures such as Jesus or Muhammad or Krishna, while others describe floating above their own deathbed, observing the scene.

 

Dr Chawla believes such experiences have a biological explanation rather than a metaphysical one.

In the research he used an electroencephalograph (EEG), a device that measures brain activity, to monitor seven terminally ill people.

 

The medical purpose of the devices was to make sure that the patients, suffering from conditions such as cancer and heart failure, were sufficiently sedated to be out of pain.

 

However, Dr Chawla noticed that moments before death the patients experienced a burst in brainwave activity lasting from 30 seconds to three minutes.

 

The activity was similar to that seen in people who are fully conscious, even though the patients appeared asleep and had no blood pressure. Soon after the surge abated, they were pronounced dead.

 

Dr Chawla’s research, published in the Journal of Palliative Medicine, is thought to be the first to suggest that near-death experiences have a particular physiological cause.

 

Although it describes only seven patients, he says he has seen the same things happening “at least 50 times” as people die.

Science, you've done it a-gain!

[Soxbadger]

Greg,

 

The white light, seeing your relatives, your basically in a dream state with very little comprehension of reality versus fantasy. If you have ever had a vivid dream you would know the experience, the difference is that when you wake up from the dream, you go "Oh I was dreaming", when someone has a near death experience, they usually are trying to give it more meaning or rationalize it, thus they try and argue its something more than a dream or illusion, when that is what it was.

 

If you have ever take a hallucinogen youll see just how warped the human minds perception can be under the right circumstances. Near death your body is being flooded with natural drugs, etc, so its likely (imo) you would experience something that resembles a hallucination.

[Steve9347]

If you have ever take a hallucinogen youll see just how warped the human minds perception can be under the right circumstances.

Greg is a Believer and thus would never do such things as take drugs and rape and pillage everything he walks past like non-Believers.

[Jake]

TV news is like the White Sox.

 

You say, "I'm sick of all this doom and gloom!" and you get on Soxtalk and you complain about people complaining. You debate and tell them how everything is going to be alright, etc.

 

Then we win and no one says much of anything.

 

I've worked at a few different levels of TV news and everyone claims to be sick of doom and gloom. Several TV stations have dedicated themselves to an "all good news" sort of format and have flopped completely. No one wants to watch that s***. You can b**** all you want, but you only turn the TV on when you know something terrible has happened. It is YOUR fault.

 

Just like the government...no one wants to pay taxes but everyone wants a nicer country/well-run government and you wonder why we can't fix our budget???

[Soxbadger]

Drugs are nothing more than a creation by God, since God is good, would his creations not be good as well? How do we rectify a good God doing bad things?

 

What about all of the first born Egyptians that God murdered for the crimes of Pharaoh? Is that fair? What would we say about a God who murdered all first born Americans due to the acts of Obama or Bush?

 

If we do believe in the Jewish God, then we must realize that God is a trickster and vengeful. With that in mind, one must wonder if the Jewish God is truly "good". I mean, what type of good God screws Job just to prove a point.

 

Philosophical arguments are fun.

[Steve9347]

Philosophical arguments are fun.

Love.

[greg775]

What do they think in Lawrence? Oops, that would end up getting Reverend Fred Phelps involved in this discussion, although that's technically Topeka, I think.

 

Under this kind of definition, gay people would be incapable of good acts because in the eyes of many Christians, their "wayward lifestyles" preclude them from going to heaven...so no matter what secular "good acts" they performed, they would be not counted in a sense because their own brand of religion couldn't countenance homosexuality, for instance.

 

On the other hand, even the most "egregious of sinners" who never performed a single good act in their lives could theoretically be accepted into the white light of heav'n if they asked for forgiveness and believed wholeheartedly (see John 3:16, etc.)

 

Greg's example is that "holier than thou person" who makes people feel uncomfortable...why does every action like that have to include a reference to God?

 

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

 

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

 

 

 

I don't think the bolded has ever been uttered before.

 

Also, to jump in on this atheist/religious debate.

 

Back in HS, one of my friends was ostracized for being atheist...asked the same thing greg is asking, "how do you have morals?" I didn't bother openly saying I was atheist until my senior year, even though I've been atheist since I was 14. Took me three years to start openly saying it, even though my close friends kind of figured I was "Jewish" in name/culture only at that point.

 

And guess what? My mom and brother got on their high horses acting as if I was suddenly a different person who hated everyone...even though I had been an atheist for three years prior to them finding out.

 

Three things will always bug me though:

 

Once I saw a man outside a Wendy's. He used a walker and had fallen down a slippery grass slope and the footing was so bad he couldn't get up. Despite the fact that I was in a rush, I jumped out my car, ran over, picked him up and made sure he was ok before leaving. Some bystander told me I was such a good Christian. Why was that a precursor to me helping an injured person?

 

Another time, out with some friends in Chicago and it's freezing out. We were dressed nicely and one of my friends, she started shivering crazy. So I took off my dress shirt (didn't have a jacket as two layers generally is enough to keep me warm, but now all I had was a Sox T-shirt on in snowy weather) and put it around her. Literally gave someone the shirt off my back. Later a friend asked me how I could do that and not believe in Jesus, then tried to convert me lest I go to hell.

 

Finally, two weeks ago when I was diagnosed with epilepsy it got my really, really down. Like, mad depressed. Someone told me that the diagnosis, along with all the other s*** that's happened to me this month, "is all part of God's plan." It took every fiber in my being to not berate them right then and there. Considering this past month has been the second worst part of my life, I'd rather this not be part of someone's "plan."

 

 

Drugs are nothing more than a creation by God, since God is good, would his creations not be good as well? How do we rectify a good God doing bad things?

 

What about all of the first born Egyptians that God murdered for the crimes of Pharaoh? Is that fair? What would we say about a God who murdered all first born Americans due to the acts of Obama or Bush?

 

If we do believe in the Jewish God, then we must realize that God is a trickster and vengeful. With that in mind, one must wonder if the Jewish God is truly "good". I mean, what type of good God screws Job just to prove a point.

 

Philosophical arguments are fun.

 

All good posts.

1.) Guys like Tebow who spread the word a lot must be motivated by the passages where we are supposed to spread the word and glorify God. He probably should shut up and pick his spots cause it doesn't work very well when u are preaching like that.

As far as my h.s. friend, his dad told me about his son's good deeds at my dad's funeral. He lives in Arizona and didn't make it back. I had no idea my friend did all those good deeds.

2.) Those things you did for people were amazing and commendable. And your friends should never have said things like 'How can you not believe and do all these good things?' You did these things because you are a good person and if there is a God as I believe there is and you don't, he assuredly would be happy at your actions. I think when the guy said you were a good Christian he was prolly trying to be nice. Your actions were those of a Christian, yes, but more importantly of a good human being. You proved you don't have to be a Christian to be great. You actually wren't trying to prove anything, your core being just had you do the right, good thing.

 

The person that said that about your seizures is an idiot. I'm guessing they were just running at the mouth and said something hurtful and something they'd regret if they'd think about what they said for a moment. If they knew you were atheist, would they have taken it a further step and said something really horrible? Hope not. It ruins my day to think somebody said it was God's will to you. That's utter crap to say to a person. It might be worth calling them on it next time. Just remember people say stupid s*** all the time.

 

3.) As far as why God allows bad, horrible things to happen, I don't know. Priests will tell you that nobody knows this, it's kind of a cop out, but that God does care and doesn't give us more than we can handle. I don't know about that either. I have no idea why some little kids get cancer, people get diabetes and seizures and healthy people drop dead jogging and people like Dahmer do their thing. I have no fricking clue. I do know that believers somehow shrug these things off and just pray to God to help everybody involved to recover from the horrible thing that happened. I was kind of amazed as family watched my dad die that everybody was praying and nobody was really mad that he was suffering as he was. Even my mom seemed to be OK with it. My dad was a big believer so it gave me some comfort thinking he probably felt he now had something in common with Jesus who suffered big time.

If some believer has a theory on why God allows bad things to happen to good people lemme know.

Edited May 10, 2012 by greg775

[StrangeSox]

If you're interested, greg, 3) is known as the "Problem of Evil" and philosophers and theologians have been wrestling with it for millennia.

[greg775]

If you're interested, greg, 3) is known as the "Problem of Evil" and philosophers and theologians have been wrestling with it for millennia.

 

Yes, which reminds me of the issue of the "devil" which is another thing that is bizarre and probably not something we want to get into. As far as I know, my fellow Catholics still believe in the devil, though he doesn't get mentioned a lot any more. This religion thing is weird, but I do know I am a believer (cue song from the Monkeys).

Edited May 10, 2012 by greg775

[StrangeSox]

Not all religions have a hell or even an afterlife at all.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah the devil, hell, etc is where Christianity jumped the shark compared to Judaism.

 

But you had to some how get around the fact that the Messiah was supposed to do certain things according to the Old Testament and since Jesus didnt do them, he cant be the Messiah. The only way to rectify was to change the story 5000 years after it was first written.

 

Which of course is why we have Judaism and Christianity. Jews still waiting for the Messiah, Christians saying that the rules changed, therefore Jesus is the Messiah.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Soxbadger

[MexSoxFan#1]

That's f***ing sick, and if it's true, January Jones is an idiot...then again, a lot of hollywood types are...such as that one that chews her babys food for them, then feeds them? I forget who this is/was, but apparently she still does it. I find this type of behavior to be childish, though I'm sure it gets dismissed as eccentric.

It was Alicia Silverstone who fed her baby that way.

[CanOfCorn]

2.) Those things you did for people were amazing and commendable. And your friends should never have said things like 'How can you not believe and do all these good things?' You did these things because you are a good person and if there is a God as I believe there is and you don't, he assuredly would be happy at your actions. I think when the guy said you were a good Christian he was prolly trying to be nice. Your actions were those of a Christian, yes, but more importantly of a good human being. You proved you don't have to be a Christian to be great. You actually wren't trying to prove anything, your core being just had you do the right, good thing.

 

And there you go...a religious person says it this way. A non-religious person leaves out God. End of story.

[StrangeSox]

And there you go...a religious person says it this way. A non-religious person leaves out God. End of story.

 

I'll quote from Graeber's Debt here:

 

[...] the words of an actual hunter-gatherer--an Inuit from Greenland made famous in the Danish writer Peter Freuchen's Book of the Eskimo. Freuchen tell how one day, after coming home hungry from an unsuccessful walrus-hunting expedition, he found one of the successful hunters dropping off several hundrer pounds of meat. He thanked him profusely. The man objected indignantly:

 

"Up in our country we are human!" said the hunter. "And since we are human we help each other. We don't like to hear anybody say thanks for that. What I get today you may get tomorrow. Up here we say that by gifts one makes slaves and by whips one makes dogs."

 

Graeber is using this example to expound on the morality of debt, but I really like the sentiment expressed by the Inuit here. To help each other is human. To say "thank you" to someone for that help suggests that he or she might not have acted that way, at least in some cultures.

[farmteam]

I'll quote from Graeber's Debt here:

 

 

 

Graeber is using this example to expound on the morality of debt, but I really like the sentiment expressed by the Inuit here. To help each other is human. To say "thank you" to someone for that help suggests that he or she might not have acted that way, at least in some cultures.

 

That is rather interesting. Jewish law has some interesting rules regarding loans/debts -- basically that you have an obligation to help people in need, but those people then have an obligation to pay it back. Their big on reciprocity of rights/obligations if I remember correctly.

[StrangeSox]

That is rather interesting. Jewish law has some interesting rules regarding loans/debts -- basically that you have an obligation to help people in need, but those people then have an obligation to pay it back. Their big on reciprocity of rights/obligations if I remember correctly.

 

That's what he gets into in that section, that saying "thank you" has an underlying assumption that you are now in this person's debt for having given you a gift. This sort of calculating and coming up with equivalent values for things is the foundation of debt, which is more than just bank loans and usury. It's a pretty interesting book thus far.

[greg775]

And there you go...a religious person says it this way. A non-religious person leaves out God. End of story.

 

I don't know your point. A Christian, or I should say a good Christian IS supposed to act that well as well as a good human being. Are you taking issue with my statement?

 

Also I don't think Christianity has "jumped the shark" as badger said. There are still a lot of believers out there and even some church-goers.

I actually enjoy going to Mass and would feel sort of empty without that time in the church.

[StrangeSox]

I don't know your point. A Christian, or I should say a good Christian IS supposed to act that well as well as a good human being. Are you taking issue with my statement?

 

His point is that while it may be a "Christian" thing to do, it is more broadly a "good person" thing to do. Categorizing a good act as a Christian act comes with all sorts of implications, like implying that a non-Christian wouldn't act that way. I don't think that was your intention, but that's exactly the sort of thing people mean when they talk about cultural privileges; base assumptions in a given society that have the effect of conferring an advantage to a majority group.

 

Also I don't think Christianity has "jumped the shark" as badger said. There are still a lot of believers out there and even some church-goers.

I actually enjoy going to Mass and would feel sort of empty without that time in the church.

 

 

"Jump the shark" means become ridiculous or a self-parody, not that it's not popular. The Simpsons "jumped the shark" over a decade ago yet still has decent ratings to my knowledge.

[southsider2k5]

His point is that while it may be a "Christian" thing to do, it is more broadly a "good person" thing to do. Categorizing a good act as a Christian act comes with all sorts of implications, like implying that a non-Christian wouldn't act that way. I don't think that was your intention, but that's exactly the sort of thing people mean when they talk about cultural privileges; base assumptions in a given society that have the effect of conferring an advantage to a majority group.

 

 

 

 

"Jump the shark" means become ridiculous or a self-parody, not that it's not popular. The Simpsons "jumped the shark" over a decade ago yet still has decent ratings to my knowledge.

 

No one remembers Fonzie jumping a shark?

[StrangeSox]

[greg775]

I still don't know if I agree Christianity has jumped the shark.

There are an awful lot of people who abide by it. Think about starting in Oklahoma and going down South and to some of the other states round there.

[Soxbadger]

The comment was Christianity compared to Judaism.

 

Before Christianity there was no such as thing as father, son, holy ghost, there was no devil, there was no god on earth, there was no resurrection, there were stories of an all powerful god. When you compare the figure Moses to Jesus, its just such a difference. All of Moses power derived from God, he lived like what 150 years, he was able to use magic, yet he is not a God, he was just a man who freed the Jews from Egypt. He is not considered a God because of the First Commandment, Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods before me. Furthermore, Moses is fallible, and is punished by being banned from Israel, even thought he did so much good for the Israelites Yet Jesus, who does not even free the Jews from the Romans (the entire point of the Messiah) is considered a God.

 

This is not even getting into Saints performing miracles, tithing or even touching half the books in the Bible.

 

Jumping the Shark means that everything has been done so you have to come up with something ridiculous, ie Fonzi jumping the shark as a Happy Day's plot. If you were to watch a TV show that was "Old Testament" and one day it changed to "New Testament", it would be a jumping the shark moment. It fundamentally alters the entire premise of the religion in a way that (imo) just is not reconcilable with the Old Testament. All of a sudden it goes from having this prankster vengeful God who interacts with random humans, to a God who has a son who dies for everyone's sin, even though for the first thousand episodes that plot line was never mentioned. If God was so pissed about the Original Sin, why did he seemingly get over it and then punish humans for a bunch of other random things, never bringing up Adam and Eve again? Its not like in the middle of flooding the Earth he starts to b****ing to Noah about Eve. When hes killing all of the Egpytians and drowning them in the Red Sea, he never seems to tell Moses that it really doesnt matter because youre all screwed.

 

Its just a completely different show based on plot lines that would be unimaginable if you were living in the Old Testament show.

[Kyyle23]

Fox would have put that show on indefinite hiatus. then they would have let three episodes run in about 8 months. Then they would tease another full season. Then they would cancel it and netflix would stream the entire season

[vandy125]

The comment was Christianity compared to Judaism.

 

Before Christianity there was no such as thing as father, son, holy ghost, there was no devil, there was no god on earth, there was no resurrection, there were stories of an all powerful god. When you compare the figure Moses to Jesus, its just such a difference. All of Moses power derived from God, he lived like what 150 years, he was able to use magic, yet he is not a God, he was just a man who freed the Jews from Egypt. He is not considered a God because of the First Commandment, Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods before me. Furthermore, Moses is fallible, and is punished by being banned from Israel, even thought he did so much good for the Israelites Yet Jesus, who does not even free the Jews from the Romans (the entire point of the Messiah) is considered a God.

 

This is not even getting into Saints performing miracles, tithing or even touching half the books in the Bible.

 

Jumping the Shark means that everything has been done so you have to come up with something ridiculous, ie Fonzi jumping the shark as a Happy Day's plot. If you were to watch a TV show that was "Old Testament" and one day it changed to "New Testament", it would be a jumping the shark moment. It fundamentally alters the entire premise of the religion in a way that (imo) just is not reconcilable with the Old Testament. All of a sudden it goes from having this prankster vengeful God who interacts with random humans, to a God who has a son who dies for everyone's sin, even though for the first thousand episodes that plot line was never mentioned. If God was so pissed about the Original Sin, why did he seemingly get over it and then punish humans for a bunch of other random things, never bringing up Adam and Eve again? Its not like in the middle of flooding the Earth he starts to b****ing to Noah about Eve. When hes killing all of the Egpytians and drowning them in the Red Sea, he never seems to tell Moses that it really doesnt matter because youre all screwed.

 

Its just a completely different show based on plot lines that would be unimaginable if you were living in the Old Testament show.

 

I think it flows beautifully from the old to the new testament. If you really want to actually discuss that sort of thing and are actually interested, I could more easily do it through PMs where I can give references to different things that come up. For instance, there are some fascinating traits of some Jewish customs in particular with passover dinner that point directly to a Triune God as well as to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection (if at all familiar, think of the 3 matzahs).

 

I didn't get a chance to study Judaism while in college (mainly Islam, Christianity, and Eastern Religions), but I think it would be pretty cool study to see the all of the connections.

[StrangeSox]

For example,

 

Many people believe that women are subservient to men due to religion. If you are going to try and argue for a woman's equality, you cant just pull out a chapter from the New Testament to support you. Thus if they keep relying on it, you just have to attack the New Testament.

 

I don't think this is correct. In my view, people interpret their religion through their own moral system more than the other way around, though there's obviously some interaction. The Bible was used to justify slavery and abolition, segregation and civil rights and just about any other social issue you can imagine (including feminism). People pick and choose which parts of religious holy books to follow based on external morals and then use religion to justify their moral claims, both good and bad.

 

I was raised in a religious family, but we were never taught messages of intolerance that you may hear in fundamentalist churches. Both sides would probably argue that the other's interpretation of the religion is wrong, but it highlights the subjective nature of the whole thing.