The Official Deja-Voodoo Torture-Sox thread

[Jordan4life_2007]

That has been the suggestion for many posters, on many, many occasions. Trade Konerko, don't resign Danks, etc.

 

Trade Konerko? Yes. And that makes sense. Like I said earlier, PK is not in his twenties. EVERYBODY thought Danks would test the FA market and that we'd more than likely lose out. Everybody wanted him back. Those that wanted him gone wanted to see us get something rather than lose him for draft picks.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So you're saying it really wasn't a total rebuild.

 

The guys the Rangers traded weren't 36. That's what I'm saying. This is franchise is going nowhere at the moment. PK is just not an untouchable asset.

[Dick Allen]

The total rebuild guys seem to think it won't harm the Sox to be real bad for so many years, but if meaningless baseball with bad players doesn't scare you away, how come the end of September game threads are 2 pages long? That's how they would be in April. Even the biggest diehards would cease to care whether you want to admit it or not.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The total rebuild guys seem to think it won't harm the Sox to be real bad for so many years, but if meaningless baseball with bad players doesn't scare you away, how come the end of September game threads are 2 pages long? That's how they would be in April. Even the biggest diehards would cease to care whether you want to admit it or not.

 

And the anti-rebuild guys seem to think it will take 20 years to be good again and the ballpark will house about 100 people. What part of THIS TEAM SUCKS RIGHT NOW DON'T YOU GET?

Edited May 8, 2012 by Jordan4life

[Dick Allen]

The guys the Rangers traded weren't 36. That's what I'm saying. This is franchise is going nowhere at the moment. PK is just not an untouchable asset.

He pretty much is in reality. You can only trade him to places he would want to go and chances are you won't get much more than salary relief for him. That won't go over with the remaining season ticket base very well.

[southsider2k5]

And the anti-rebuild guys seem to think it will take 20 years to be good again and the ballpark will house about 100 people. What part of THIS TEAM SUCKS RIGHT NOW DON'T YOU GET?

 

We are watching rebuilding, right here and right now, and people still can't handle this. Reality isn't OOTP '13. This is rebuilding when you have a notoriously fickle fanbase.

[southsider2k5]

He pretty much is in reality. You can only trade him to places he would want to go and chances are you won't get much more than salary relief for him. That won't go over with the remaining season ticket base very well.

 

Trading the face of your franchise for esstentially nothing benefits the team how exactly? John Daniels recognized this and held on to his top player who had much more trade value than Konerko did. He also went out into the free agent market at this time.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Trading the face of your franchise for esstentially nothing benefits the team how exactly? John Daniels recognized this and held on to his top player who had much more trade value than Konerko did. He also went out into the free agent market at this time.

 

Who said for nothing? You trade him if you can get some worthwhile pieces back. You don't keep him because he hit a grand slam in the World Series 7 years ago.

[Dick Allen]

Trading the face of your franchise for esstentially nothing benefits the team how exactly? John Daniels recognized this and held on to his top player who had much more trade value than Konerko did. He also went out into the free agent market at this time.

That's what I'm saying.

 

All these rebuild guys can't even take it when they are rebuilding on the fly. Getting rid of anybody with even the smallest of value and starting over would be a total disaster.

[southsider2k5]

Who said for nothing? You trade him if you can get some worthwhile pieces back. You don't keep him because he hit a grand slam in the World Series 7 years ago.

 

They keep him because people buy tickets to see him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

They keep him because people buy tickets to see him.

 

The same people that you say are so fickle and that we need to win a World Series to please?

[Dick Allen]

Who said for nothing? You trade him if you can get some worthwhile pieces back. You don't keep him because he hit a grand slam in the World Series 7 years ago.

The point is, you aren't going to get a major haul for him due to age and contract, even though his contract is fair. And you are limited as to where you could trade him as he has full no trade protection.

[southsider2k5]

The same people that you say are so fickle and that we need to win a World Series to please?

 

There is a difference between the attendance we have now, the attendance we had after the world series, and the attendance this team had when they were a laughing stock of baseball. It is ignorant to think that this is as low as attendance can go.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The point is, you aren't going to get a major haul for him due to age and contract, even though his contract is fair. And you are limited as to where you could trade him as he has full no trade protection.

 

Then if that's the case he stays. Nobody is advocating giving him away. But this "Well, he's Paul Konerko and we need him to sell tickets" stance is garbage.

[southsider2k5]

Then if that's the case he stays. Nobody is advocating giving him away. But this "Well, he's Paul Konerko and we need him to sell tickets" stance is garbage.

 

It is not like revenue determines payroll or anything...

[Jordan4life_2007]

It is not like revenue determines payroll or anything...

 

People aren't coming to the park to see PK in late June if the team is 10 games out of first place.

[southsider2k5]

People aren't coming to the park to see PK in late June if the team is 10 games out of first place.

 

Keeping payroll and attendance at even respectable levels will determine how long rebuilding takes. If you chase away the entire fanbase, there won't be anything to pay players with when they start getting good. The Sox would turn into Oakland again and be in the cycle of never being good because anytime you start to get good, the team gets too expensive and players get dealt. See also Bill Veeck.

[Y2Jimmy0]

People aren't coming to the park to see PK in late June if the team is 10 games out of first place.

 

 

I for one have never gone to the park to see Paul Konerko. I used to go to SEE Frank. PK is not Frank. I will never believe that people go to the park to see Paul Konerko play and the 29th in MLB in attendance is proving that. So many people think that by trading away veterans it somehow s***s on the fans. It s***s on the stupid fans. And yes, during the rebuild, the park would be empty. But once the White Sox got consistently good again, those same fans would be back. That's the way it goes.

[fathom]

People aren't coming to the park to see PK in late June if the team is 10 games out of first place.

 

20,266 in attendance in first game at the Cell after Konerko's 400th homer and Humber's first start after perfect game.

[fathom]

I've gone to a Sox game one time in my life to see a particular player, and that was Pedro Martinez during his remarkable run on the Red Sox. I already had tickets for the game in which Beckham made his debut, so I probably would have gone to that game especially to see the debut also. Unless Konerko gets to 499 home runs, I wouldn't entertain going to the game just to see him play.

[NorthSideSox72]

I've gone to a Sox game one time in my life to see a particular player, and that was Pedro Martinez during his remarkable run on the Red Sox. I already had tickets for the game in which Beckham made his debut, so I probably would have gone to that game especially to see the debut also. Unless Konerko gets to 499 home runs, I wouldn't entertain going to the game just to see him play.

 

I just posted this in the other thread, but it is obviously needed here as well...

 

Then you simply are not familiar with the way the team is run. Revenue dictates player payroll. Revenue is tied to the success of the team (among other things). Not everyone feels as you do - many more fans will show up for a team that is decent, than one that is terrible. They will also sometimes show up for certain star players.

 

Whether or not YOU will is irrelevant, for the purpose of how the team is run. The White Sox, in their current situation, cannot do a gut rebuild and expect to succeed, short or long term. They need butts in the seats. Therefore, an 88 win team is most definitely better for the team's future than a 60 win team, all else equal.

 

This is why KW is doing a short-term rebuild on the fly for 2013 or 2014. That's the only realistic alternative he has in front of him.

 

You are not the fan base - you are one of many types of fans.

 

[fathom]

You are not the fan base - you are one of many types of fans.

 

And is there any evidence that the Sox have a player on the roster that generates more attendance than others? A great example is Buehrle, who was easily the most beloved Sox pitcher ever. I never once heard a statistic that attendance was up when he pitched and that TV ratings increased. There have been examples of this, as I remember hearing how KC's attendance/ratings were up on days Greinke pitched during his great season. The ironic thing is that if Buehrle was to come back and face the Sox in a game, you'd probably see an attendance bump for that night.

 

NSS, don't get me wrong. I hate when our fans complain about too many Red Sox/Yankees fans at our games. Of course attendance matters, and it would be great if we were like the Cubs and able to still average 30k despite being a mediocre team. Unfortunately that's not realistic, but as balta likes to point out, the reason for the drastic cut in payroll this year is cause the front office knew how terrible the attendance was going to be. Now, if JR is willing to have a $150 million payroll for 2013, then all of this rebuilding is out the window and bring on Hamels/Cano.

Edited May 8, 2012 by fathom

[Greg Hibbard]

I don't know that attendance is as correlated to wins as people say that it is. I haven't done the research yet, but hear me out.

 

First of all, the first home game after Humber's perfecto and Paulie's 400th was also a rather frigid 39 degrees on a Thursday night. The s*** weather we are having this april-may might have a little something to do with why the numbers are so low, thus far.

 

There are many naturally well-attended games at this ballpark, regardless of how the White Sox are doing. Typically, the Yankees and Cubs sell out their games at the Cell, and typically the Red Sox do too. We got a bad break in that we had poor weather for the Red Sox games - usually they are in August and usually they aren't competing with Bulls and Hawks playoff teams. People are in full baseball mode by then.

 

Certain divisional rivalries also bring bigger walkup numbers, because there are TONS of f***ing Tribe, Tigers, Twins fans who transplanted to Chicago from their s***ty cities that they love to root for capriciously but not live in.

 

When this team was possibly at its most recently irrelevant, the 1999 season, the team drew approximately 1.4 million fans, a 16k average. Pitifully low numbers, but that was when the last title was 70+ years ago and we had few things other than Frank that were bringing people out. It was also before the naming rights were sold and the Cell was still the eyesore that was Comiskey II, a ballpark I always felt the need to alternately either describe in terms of the food served or apologize for.

 

A lot of things are different these days. I think the worst it would ever get would be maybe 21k average, considering the recent world series, the new features of the ballpark, interleague and other intangibles.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Greg Hibbard

[NorthSideSox72]

And is there any evidence that the Sox have a player on the roster that generates more attendance than others? A great example is Buehrle, who was easily the most beloved Sox pitcher ever. I never once heard a statistic that attendance was up when he pitched and that TV ratings increased. There have been examples of this, as I remember hearing how KC's attendance/ratings were up on days Greinke pitched during his great season. The ironic thing is that if Buehrle was to come back and face the Sox in a game, you'd probably see an attendance bump for that night.

 

NSS, don't get me wrong. I hate when our fans complain about too many Red Sox/Yankees fans at our games. Of course attendance matters, and it would be great if we were like the Cubs and able to still average 30k despite being a mediocre team. Unfortunately that's not realistic, but as balta likes to point out, the reason for the drastic cut in payroll this year is cause the front office knew how terrible the attendance was going to be. Now, if JR is willing to have a $150 million payroll for 2013, then all of this rebuilding is out the window and bring on Hamels/Cano.

 

I don't have a statistical study of correlation or anything - I just see how many people come to games, and it is clearly tied to success levels. For that matter, I've been a season ticket holder for years, and we sell our unused tickets (on Stub Hub, on here, etc.); I see clear trends, when the team is somewhere "in it", the tickets sell far, far better than when they drop out of contention.

 

Now, is there a difference between two teams that win 75 or 70 games, and are both out of it in May? No. But if one team is near the top for the first half of the year, and the other is not, the former will definitely sell more tickets than the latter. I've seen it.

 

[southsider2k5]

And is there any evidence that the Sox have a player on the roster that generates more attendance than others? A great example is Buehrle, who was easily the most beloved Sox pitcher ever. I never once heard a statistic that attendance was up when he pitched and that TV ratings increased. There have been examples of this, as I remember hearing how KC's attendance/ratings were up on days Greinke pitched during his great season. The ironic thing is that if Buehrle was to come back and face the Sox in a game, you'd probably see an attendance bump for that night.

 

NSS, don't get me wrong. I hate when our fans complain about too many Red Sox/Yankees fans at our games. Of course attendance matters, and it would be great if we were like the Cubs and able to still average 30k despite being a mediocre team. Unfortunately that's not realistic, but as balta likes to point out, the reason for the drastic cut in payroll this year is cause the front office knew how terrible the attendance was going to be. Now, if JR is willing to have a $150 million payroll for 2013, then all of this rebuilding is out the window and bring on Hamels/Cano.

 

Then again, he is gone, and attendance is down 20%.