Sale back to the rotation per KW, MRI comes back clean

[caulfield12]

Randy Johnson had a very thin frame too, did he ever have a major surgery? I don't recall that happening early in his career, if at all.

 

OTOH, CJ Wilson blew out his elbow after three seasons in the minors with a moderate minor league starting. But he was able later in life to jump from reliever's innings up to 200+ innings, seemingly without any trouble. He also went through bone spurs as a reliever, missed about 6 weeks and then returned the following season with no adverse repercussions.

 

 

In the end, this is a messageboard. Isn't the point that everyone has a right to an opinion? Nobody said they're "smarter" than the White Sox or have more information...but to say the way they're handling this is beyond our questioning is not realistic, either. Otherwise, not a single thread would exist here. It should be just a website that reposts information from Rongey, Scott Merkin, chisox.com, Brooks Boyer on marketing/promotions, etc.

 

To say we don't have enough information to have an informed opinion, then I'm sure you could go back and take every major trade or acquisition KW has made the last 3 years and could spin it in a way that makes it defensible. Does that matter if the results are bad every time, even if the decision-making can be defended as sound? If a "general trend" emerges and the storyline becomes "what the heck are the White Sox doing, they SEEM like they don't have a clue" it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Perception is more important than reality. We can observe a general feeling of apathy or sentiment that many fans simply aren't going to go out to the ballpark again and spend their hard-earned dollars until the organization produces some results on the field of play.

Edited May 9, 2012 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated.

 

 

Back to PTAC talk again, haha.

 

All we ever hear as "lay people" is that the slider puts a tremendous amount of torque on the elbow, and the example of Liriano is always raised here. One would THINK throwing change-ups would be less stressful than sliders on the elbow, yes?

 

Does throwing 10-15 fastballs at 96-99 MPH put the same amount of stress as 40-50 at 92-94?

 

If you look at Liriano, the thing that's very clear is that even after the TJ surgery, which has almost become a "stuff strengthener/improver" a year or year and a half after a pitcher returns from this particular surgery...Liriano is definitely a counter-example there. He's never come close to having the same slider as in 2006.

 

With a pitcher with Chris Sales' frame, is it the mechanics that are causing more stress? His arm angle? His body density or lack of muscle? Does being thin like a Randy Johnson cause more wear and tear than someone built like Mark Prior or Kerry Wood?

 

How realistic is it that Sales' mechanics could be changed/improved/adapted so that post TJ surgery he could pitch for a long period of time without any additional problems while simultaneously keeping his same stuff, deception and movement or pitch effects (whatever you want to call it) when he throws the ball?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Scott Merkin ‏ @scottmerkin

 

Sale will get MRI in Chicago Thursday. If that comes back ok, then nothing is out of the question for his next assignment

[southsider2k5]

Mark Gonzales ‏ @MDGonzales

 

Sale said he feels fine but doesn't expect to be used tonight

[caulfield12]

Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama?

 

They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent.

Edited May 9, 2012 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama?

 

They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent.

This would actually have been a real awful week to just "Skip his start" because we not only didn't have Mr. Offday, we had a double header. Skipping a start this week means a ton of roster moves and means something is seriously wrong with a guy.

[Reddy]

This would actually have been a real awful week to just "Skip his start" because we not only didn't have Mr. Offday, we had a double header. Skipping a start this week means a ton of roster moves and means something is seriously wrong with a guy.

which is... what... we did...

[TaylorStSox]

Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama?

 

They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent.

The only place any "drama" exists is on the board and in your head. It's not like people on the street are like, "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale." Most people don't get angry over conjecture and speculation.

[flavum]

Here's that Coop interview, or part of it...

 

http://siriusxmsports.posterous.com/don-co...coach-on-mlb-ne

[Balta1701]

which is... what... we did...

And hence...look, drama.

[ptatc]

Cortisone, pitch, pitch, tear, tommy john, fixed.

 

IMO.

you can't use cortisone for this type of problem. Cortisone is only used in a joint capsule, bursa or a similar enclosed area. this problem is all outside the joint capsule.

[ptatc]

DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical.

This is definitely atypical with being proactive to soreness. But I like it. They are trying to protect a young promising pitcher. Most of the time they pitch him until he is in too much pain to pitch and then he goes on the DL. Part of the reason maybe that they don't really expect to compete this year and are protecting the future.

[ptatc]

The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line.

If it is truly muscular it makes all the sense in the world. Throwing 20 pitches 3 times per week will not fatigue the muscle as much as 100 pitches at one time. Mechanically it fewer times throwing the slider with fatigued muscles.

[knightni]

There isn't an ACL in the elbow. There is an UCL, the ulnar collateral ligament on the inside of the elbow and an RCL or radial collateral ligament on the outside of the elbow. Although the old terminology for each is MCL and LCL for medial and lateral collateral ligaments which is similar to the knee terminology. There are no cruciate ligaments in the elbow.

 

 

you can't use cortisone for this type of problem. Cortisone is only used in a joint capsule, bursa or a similar enclosed area. this problem is all outside the joint capsule.

 

[ptatc]

Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated.

It's not consistent with stress fracture (stress reaction is the new in vogue term) symptoms. It really sounds muscular and they are trying to decrease his number of pitches when the muscles will be fatigued and thus less stress on the ligaments.

[ptatc]

Randy Johnson had a very thin frame too, did he ever have a major surgery? I don't recall that happening early in his career, if at all.

 

OTOH, CJ Wilson blew out his elbow after three seasons in the minors with a moderate minor league starting. But he was able later in life to jump from reliever's innings up to 200+ innings, seemingly without any trouble. He also went through bone spurs as a reliever, missed about 6 weeks and then returned the following season with no adverse repercussions.

 

 

In the end, this is a messageboard. Isn't the point that everyone has a right to an opinion? Nobody said they're "smarter" than the White Sox or have more information...but to say the way they're handling this is beyond our questioning is not realistic, either. Otherwise, not a single thread would exist here. It should be just a website that reposts information from Rongey, Scott Merkin, chisox.com, Brooks Boyer on marketing/promotions, etc.

 

To say we don't have enough information to have an informed opinion, then I'm sure you could go back and take every major trade or acquisition KW has made the last 3 years and could spin it in a way that makes it defensible. Does that matter if the results are bad every time, even if the decision-making can be defended as sound? If a "general trend" emerges and the storyline becomes "what the heck are the White Sox doing, they SEEM like they don't have a clue" it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Perception is more important than reality. We can observe a general feeling of apathy or sentiment that many fans simply aren't going to go out to the ballpark again and spend their hard-earned dollars until the organization produces some results on the field of play.

His mechanics were a lot smoother. You need to take each case separately and look at the soreness and pain. If Randy Johnson didn't have pain you wouldn't change a thing. however, we know sale has had problems so the sox are being proactive instead of reactive to a potential problem.

[Balta1701]

It's not consistent with stress fracture (stress reaction is the new in vogue term) symptoms. It really sounds muscular and they are trying to decrease his number of pitches when the muscles will be fatigued and thus less stress on the ligaments.

If this is the case, hypothetically, then could the fact that he was in the bullpen last year and threw fewer innings be directly related to why it's hurting now?

 

i.e. if he'd thrown 150 innings last year at Charlotte, after 150 the previous 2 years at AAA, could that have helped his arm muscles be less fatigued now?

[ptatc]

Back to PTAC talk again, haha.

 

All we ever hear as "lay people" is that the slider puts a tremendous amount of torque on the elbow, and the example of Liriano is always raised here. One would THINK throwing change-ups would be less stressful than sliders on the elbow, yes?

 

Does throwing 10-15 fastballs at 96-99 MPH put the same amount of stress as 40-50 at 92-94?

 

If you look at Liriano, the thing that's very clear is that even after the TJ surgery, which has almost become a "stuff strengthener/improver" a year or year and a half after a pitcher returns from this particular surgery...Liriano is definitely a counter-example there. He's never come close to having the same slider as in 2006.

 

With a pitcher with Chris Sales' frame, is it the mechanics that are causing more stress? His arm angle? His body density or lack of muscle? Does being thin like a Randy Johnson cause more wear and tear than someone built like Mark Prior or Kerry Wood?

 

How realistic is it that Sales' mechanics could be changed/improved/adapted so that post TJ surgery he could pitch for a long period of time without any additional problems while simultaneously keeping his same stuff, deception and movement or pitch effects (whatever you want to call it) when he throws the ball?

The slider does not inherently put more stress on the elbow. More stress is put on the elbow when the pitcher "drops down" more to get more slide on it. Surgery will not help if the mechanics don't change. Liriano needed to change the way he threw the slider which is why it is not as effective.

sale really "flips" his arm when he goes from the windup to the acceleration phase. He also throws from a lower arm angle. These a primary factors in adding more stress to the elbow. I'm sure the hope is that once his strength and endurance improves the elbow soreness goes away and his wrist flexors/elbow pronators are strong enough to not get sore and he can return to starting.

[ptatc]

Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama?

 

They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent.

Skipping the start will decrease the soreness and inflammation but will not increase the muscular strength and endurance. Putting him in the pen allows them to gradually build up the strength of the effected muscles.

[ptatc]

If this is the case, hypothetically, then could the fact that he was in the bullpen last year and threw fewer innings be directly related to why it's hurting now?

 

i.e. if he'd thrown 150 innings last year at Charlotte, after 150 the previous 2 years at AAA, could that have helped his arm muscles be less fatigued now?

Yes, as we discussed when they did it. His muscular strength and endurance is not where it needs to be to start and throw this many pitches at a time. There is no way the sox could know if he would run into the problem. Some pitchers can build it up faster without problems. however, I think it's safe to say that if they would have had him starting last year, the same thing would have happened and he could have done this process last year. There is no guarantee he would have pushed himself this hard in the minors but he probably would have.

[Balta1701]

Yes, as we discussed when they did it. His muscular strength and endurance is not where it needs to be to start and throw this many pitches at a time. There is no way the sox could know if he would run into the problem. Some pitchers can build it up faster without problems. however, I think it's safe to say that if they would have had him starting last year, the same thing would have happened and he could have done this process last year. There is no guarantee he would have pushed himself this hard in the minors but he probably would have.

(Mind you, I only asked because people doubted me when I said that could have been a major factor in the other Sale thread, and I wanted you on record. Thanks!)

[southsider2k5]

which is... what... we did...

 

And he did pitch during this stretch. If he didn't it would have meant yet another call up.

[Marty34]

Didn't see it in the thread, but MRI for sale tomorrow.

[caulfield12]

The only place any "drama" exists is on the board and in your head. It's not like people on the street are like, "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale." Most people don't get angry over conjecture and speculation.

 

 

Yea, I'm personally responsible for 45 pages of posts and numerous threads about this situation.

 

Nobody else is concerned or speculating, lol.

 

In fact, I keep saying "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale" over and over again. Wait. Where in any thread ever written at SoxTalk have I used those words?

[TaylorStSox]

Yea, I'm personally responsible for 45 pages of posts and numerous threads about this situation.

 

Nobody else is concerned or speculating, lol.

 

In fact, I keep saying "the Sox are f***ing Chris Sale" over and over again. Wait. Where in any thread ever written at SoxTalk have I used those words?

You're entertaining me on an otherwise boring day. Outside if this board, there is no drama. I caight the game at a Sox bar in the loop last night. I had about 4 conversations regarding Sale that all went like this,"what's going on with Sale?" "I don't know but it would be a shame if he never started again." "Yup." There's concern, but no drama, no essay long diatribes, no anger. Why? Nobody really knows anything at this point.