southsider2k5 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:50 PM) SO DL HIM WHILE YOU FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT! don't just publicize to the world "hey we think his arm's gonna fall off!" WHY DL HIM IF YOU DON"T NEED 15 DAYS TO FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:54 PM) WHY DL HIM IF YOU DON"T NEED 15 DAYS TO FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT? Because we rested him for a week, pitched him again, and he was still sore enough you're sending him for an MRI afterwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) will you stop. it's not a hilarious overreaction to say that taking our starter of the future and putting him permanently in the bullpen without a DL stint, MRI, or looking to trade him, was a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense. Obviously you have no scruples and would trade Sale if you thought he was hurt and would do everything you could to keep that information from your trading partner. Pulling crap like that gets you into a lot of trouble Edited May 9, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:01 PM) Obviously you have no scruples and would trade Sale if you thought he was hurt and would do everything you could to keep that information from your trading partner. Pulling crap like that gets you into a lot of trouble like getting the Mariners Jesus Montero? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Sox brass does not know what the hell they want to do with Sale start, relieve, rest, MRI. Edited May 9, 2012 by Soxfest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:54 PM) WHY DL HIM IF YOU DON"T NEED 15 DAYS TO FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT? um... we obviously DO need 15 days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) will you stop. it's not a hilarious overreaction to say that taking our starter of the future and putting him permanently in the bullpen without a DL stint, MRI, or looking to trade him, was a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense. ... QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:50 PM) SO DL HIM WHILE YOU FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT! don't just publicize to the world "hey we think his arm's gonna fall off!" QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) PLUS. Chris was just as confused and blindsided as we were. That doesn't seem right to me. QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:09 PM) um... we obviously DO need 15 days... Screaming in ALL CAPS, saying that a move to protect his arm is "a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense", suggesting doing a quick trade of a guy with an arm issue, and somehow miraculously knowing they need 15 days... you're kind of making my point for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:08 PM) Sox brass does not know what the hell they want to do with Sale start, relieve, rest, MRI. Cortisone, pitch, pitch, tear, tommy john, fixed. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:13 PM) ... Screaming in ALL CAPS, saying that a move to protect his arm is "a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense", suggesting doing a quick trade of a guy with an arm issue, and somehow miraculously knowing they need 15 days... you're kind of making my point for me. it was only all caps because fathom and i have been banging our heads against a wall saying the same thing for days. i'm just saying we didn't do our due diligence in assessing the situation completely before making a press statement about it. that's it. you honestly disagree with that statement? hell Chris didn't even know this was a possibility till they laid it on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:22 PM) it was only all caps because fathom and i have been banging our heads against a wall saying the same thing for days. i'm just saying we didn't do our due diligence in assessing the situation completely before making a press statement about it. that's it. you honestly disagree with that statement? hell Chris didn't even know this was a possibility till they laid it on him. They did their "due dilligence", and here's where you are wrong. If they say nothing and Sale misses his start or goes on the DL and they again say nothing, how exactly is helping his "trade value"? Silence would have only made the speculation worse. Edited May 9, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:25 PM) They did their "due dilligence", and here's where you are wrong. If they say nothing and Sale misses his start or goes on the DL and they again say nothing, how exactly is helping his "trade value"? Silence would have only made the speculation worse. there was no speculation prior to our announcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) there was no speculation prior to our announcement. But he was supposed to start on Sunday. If that's skipped, you have to say something. If he goes on the DL which some are advocating, you have to say something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:32 PM) But he was supposed to start on Sunday. If that's skipped, you have to say something. If he goes on the DL which some are advocating, you have to say something. DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I'll give the organization a lot of credit if they show they're not stubborn and actually are willing to put him back in the rotation or on the DL, etc. I have no problem with an organization reversing course so quickly if they feel it's in the best interest of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical. Typical because its the injury you said by not DLing and just coming out and saying he's sore and needs to go to the bullpen him let the world know he was broken. But putting him on the DL and not telling anyone why would do nothing to his trade value. Its really NOT TYPICAL to put healthy players on the DL. Regarding Jesus Montero, if Seattle was aware of the health problem before the trade, they would be in a lot of trouble. First, the trade would be rescinded, then losing a couple draft picks and fines, then the little deal about no team wanting to deal with you again.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical. The Sox stopped this before it became something they needed to DL for. That is atypical. That is why no one can understand this. Usually the pitcher get injured before teams do something. The Sox stopped this before it got to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) The Sox stopped this before it became something they needed to DL for. That is atypical. That is why no one can understand this. Usually the pitcher get injured before teams do something. The Sox stopped this before it got to that point. Which makes more sense than anything else anyone has offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) The Sox stopped this before it became something they needed to DL for. That is atypical. That is why no one can understand this. Usually the pitcher get injured before teams do something. The Sox stopped this before it got to that point. Thank you. A DL trip would have been worse on multiple levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 07:44 PM) Which makes more sense than anything else anyone has offered. The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:39 PM) I'll give the organization a lot of credit if they show they're not stubborn and actually are willing to put him back in the rotation or on the DL, etc. I have no problem with an organization reversing course so quickly if they feel it's in the best interest of the team. That's pretty much my thought. If they think it was just too quick an increase in workload, then let him relieve for a while, then start again later, maybe in 2012 when someone else goes down, or in 2013. If it is mechanical and something that is going to happen either way, then DL him when it becomes necessary. If it is a situation where he can handle reliever innings but not starter innings, then make him a reliever. That appears to be their plan, so I am fine with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. In relief, he pitches maybe 70 innings per year. As a starter, 180-200 innings. That isn't a fine line, that is a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Going off of the Sox and Sale categorizing this specifically as sore muscles, I think Ptatc gets the best word here. Combine what he is saying, with how the Sox have handled this, and the thing that makes the most sense to me is that the Sox are being extra cautious. They could have let him keep going out there as a starter, but wanted to make sure this didn't turn into something worse, ala Jake Peavy. According to what Ptatc is saying there is a definite advantage to being in the pen as long as this is muscular and not a ligament. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:45 PM) Thank you. A DL trip would have been worse on multiple levels. QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. QUOTE (ptatc @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:21 AM) I'm sure he meant UCL for ulnar collateral ligament. For what it's worth, here is my take on what's happening based on all of the information out there and from people I know in MLB. Sale's elbow has been sore. It's seems mostly muscular not ligamentous (UCL). The Sox staff (Cooper, Schneider, KW) are all worried about his mechanics and workload. There is heavy skepticism that he can last a full year starting with his mechanics. So do you want a part time starter or a full time reliever? It looks like they are going to decrease his workload by having him start for awhile then be in the bullpen for awhile then go back to starting. If you are worried about structural damage such as the UCL, this would be a horrible idea as the constant work out of the bullpen would mostly cause more damage. However from a muscle development aspect it's not a bad idea. The other option is to put him in the minors and slowly build up his arm with skipping start as I believe it was Balta advocated. However I think the Sox value his arm too much at the MLB level. This whole process of a part time starter is out of the box thinking which is why it creating such an controversy. However, from a purely physical point of view, it's different, but makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. He's pitching one inning at a time. Probably averages 17-18 pitches an inning. If he pitches 70 innings x 18 pitches, its 1260 pitches. If he averages 100 pitches a start, that's 13 starts, plus Stone mentioned in the bullpen he can be a 2 pitch pitcher and that will cut down the stress on his elbow as well. He's 23, Randy Johnson really wasn't anything but hot garbage until he was 25-26. Maybe if Sale fills out a little more and gets stronger, these issues won't be issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 07:49 PM) He's pitching one inning at a time. Probably averages 17-18 pitches an inning. If he pitches 70 innings x 18 pitches, its 1260 pitches. If he averages 100 pitches a start, that's 13 starts, plus Stone mentioned in the bullpen he can be a 2 pitch pitcher and that will cut down the stress on his elbow as well. Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Scot Gregor @scotgregor #WhiteSox GM Kenny Williams finally weighs in on Chris Sale situation. Says he's been "on the move," will discuss Sale at the Cell Friday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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