Peter Bourjos

[GREEDY]

I can't remember the last time a 25 year old player with this kind of talent has been this "available".

 

Local dude, only 740 career at-bats, and he has a Jacoby Ellsbury circa 2011 skill set.

 

But because Kenny Williams currently employs three everyday designated hitters, there really isn't an outfield spot for Bourjos.

 

It is a shame because he is going to be a better player than anyone in our organization. At least the Sox aren't blocking him with Vernon Wells.

[chw42]

I can't remember the last time a 25 year old player with this kind of talent has been this "available".

 

Local dude, only 740 career at-bats, and he has a Jacoby Ellsbury circa 2011 skill set.

 

But because Kenny Williams currently employs three everyday designated hitters, there really isn't an outfield spot for Bourjos.

 

It is a shame because he is going to be a better player than anyone in our organization. At least the Sox aren't blocking him with Vernon Wells.

 

I would love Bourjos, defensive extraordinaire. I'd contemplate trading Viciedo for him.

Edited May 16, 2012 by chw42

[caulfield12]

I can't remember the last time a 25 year old player with this kind of talent has been this "available".

 

Local dude, only 740 career at-bats, and he has a Jacoby Ellsbury circa 2011 skill set.

 

But because Kenny Williams currently employs three everyday designated hitters, there really isn't an outfield spot for Bourjos.

 

It is a shame because he is going to be a better player than anyone in our organization. At least the Sox aren't blocking him with Vernon Wells.

 

 

Let's say the White Sox did acquire him, who are you going to bench to play him?

 

He's a career .249 hitter with a 712 OPS and 33 steals in those 740 at-bats.

 

Is that clearly better than what DeAza's been providing? No way.

 

Yes, Bourjos is younger, 25, and he's a local Chicago product, but you're not going to see Alex Rios benched, so that means Viciedo will sit.

 

In which case you're going to have an outfield with VERY limited power numbers at USCF, on a team where you're getting almost no pop at 3B, SS and 2B.

 

The only thing that would make sense would be to trade Dunn, make Viciedo the full-time DH and then you'd have Bourjos, DeAza and Rios as your starting OF, but is that the kind of outfield that you can build a pennant winner around? Definitely, the defense would be much improved with Bourjos in CF, DeAza in LF and Rios in RF.

 

 

[fathom]

No thanks...that type of speed would be better suited for a bigger ball park.

[caulfield12]

The problem with Bourjos is the same one we had with Juan Pierre taking up 600-700 at-bats, or we would have had with Reggie Willits, too.

 

You can have ONE hitter in your outfield like that when you play 81 games at USCF. However, as the 8 run debacle proved today, once it heats up in the summertime, games are won at our park by 3 run homers.

 

Speed and defensive ability helps, but not enough to offset fly ball pitchers unless those aforementioned outfielders have 40+ " vertical leaps and can rob numerous home run balls at the fence.

[witesoxfan]

The problem with Bourjos is the same one we had with Juan Pierre taking up 600-700 at-bats, or we would have had with Reggie Willits, too.

 

You can have ONE hitter in your outfield like that when you play 81 games at USCF. However, as the 8 run debacle proved today, once it heats up in the summertime, games are won at our park by 3 run homers.

 

Speed and defensive ability helps, but not enough to offset fly ball pitchers unless those aforementioned outfielders have 40+ " vertical leaps and can rob numerous home run balls at the fence.

 

You are comparing Peter Bourjos to Juan Pierre and Reggie Willits.

 

From 2004 through today, spanning 5,328 plate appearances, Juan Pierre hit 12 home runs. That's a super sizzling rate of 444 PA/HR. If you tried to figure out Willits' career HR/PA, the world would explode. If he miraculously hit 1 tomorrow in his only plate appearance, he'd be at 1,015 PA/HR.

 

Peter Bourjos, in 552 PAs last year, hit 12 home runs. It's not an other worldly total, but it's a hell of a lot more powerful than the 12 homers combined that Pierre and Willits have combined for in their previous 6,344 PAs. It's an absolutely terrible comparison.

 

If there IS a comparison you can make, it's probably to someone like Carlos Gomez, but even then, I'd argue Bourjos is a better hitter.

[caulfield12]

You are comparing Peter Bourjos to Juan Pierre and Reggie Willits.

 

From 2004 through today, spanning 5,328 plate appearances, Juan Pierre hit 12 home runs. That's a super sizzling rate of 444 PA/HR. If you tried to figure out Willits' career HR/PA, the world would explode. If he miraculously hit 1 tomorrow in his only plate appearance, he'd be at 1,015 PA/HR.

 

Peter Bourjos, in 552 PAs last year, hit 12 home runs. It's not an other worldly total, but it's a hell of a lot more powerful than the 12 homers combined that Pierre and Willits have combined for in their previous 6,344 PAs. It's an absolutely terrible comparison.

 

If there IS a comparison you can make, it's probably to someone like Carlos Gomez, but even then, I'd argue Bourjos is a better hitter.

 

But the point remains, is DeAza/Bourjos/Rios with Viciedo as DH ever going to be as effective statistically (looking at both offense, defense and payroll dollars) as Viciedo/DeAza/Rios with Dunn as DH?

 

The only reason I used Willits and Pierre as examples is because Juan WAS here last year and got way too many AB's in the leadoff spot and many sought to acquire Willits two or so years ago.

 

Then, there's the actual price we would have to pay in talent to acquire Bourjos in the first place.

 

 

[Jake]

No thanks, doesn't fit for us. Viciedo has a corner for a long time and Bourjos hasn't proven that he is a better player than ADA yet -- just younger.

[witesoxfan]

I'm not arguing for the Sox to trade for him. Having an incredible defensive CFer like that would take a decent defensive OF and make it the best defensive outfield in the Central and possibly the AL/MLB but it's not a drastic need and the cost to get him could very easily be Sale or something almost similar. You don't trade Sale, but if you do trade Sale (you don't), you trade him for a position of actual need like 3B (but you don't trade Sale so it's silly to consider it).

 

But, to humor you, I'll play along.

 

1) The Sox wouldn't trade for Bourjos without first finding a new permanent home for Viciedo, whether that be at 1B with Konerko traded, at DH with Dunn traded, or by straight up trading Viciedo.

2) Considering defensive, offensive, and monetary value, I see the two combinations you mentioned as basically a push. But I don't see why you can't have your Dunn and Bourjos it too.

3) Just because Juan Pierre was with the Sox for the previous two seasons doesn't validate the comparison (unless your intentions are to suggest "Bourjos would be this much better and here's why"). Juan Pierre was a decent defensive LFer with the Sox who was good because he had speed to burn. His arm was terrible, he had no power, and he was quite obviously losing a step or two throughout the duration of his time with the Sox. Peter Bourjos gets great reads, has speed to burn, has a cannon for an arm, has pop in his bat, can steal bases (and will get better at it as he matures and refines his technique) and is young. It'd be similar to comparing Alexei Ramirez to Joe Crede or Paul Konerko to Carlos Quentin. Yeah, at some level it makes a bit of sense but in the general grand scheme of things they are incredibly different ballplayers.

[caulfield12]

So back to the Angels. They're penned in by the Wells contract (http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays), owing him $42 million for the next two seasons.

 

But they get the Torii Hunter deal off the books after this season AND they've already jettisoned Abreu.

 

Obviously, they have Trout in their future plans, but why wouldn't they just hold on to Bourjos for the remainder of this season, knowing they'll still need him in 2013 and beyond?

 

What would the White Sox have to offer the Angels (that they need in present-tense since Pujols/Wilson put them firmly in "win now" territory) which would make the trade even worth doing for Anaheim?

 

 

So, in the end, what's the best thing for the White Sox to do, trade Konerko and make Viciedo the primary 1B (sharing at-bats with Dan Johnson) with Dunn as the DH for two more years...making the OF DeAza/Bourjos/Rios...or trading Dunn and keeping Konerko?

 

Sentimentally, most would argue for keeping Paulie (also because of the uncertainty about Viciedo's defense with another position move back to 1B and the fact Viciedo perhaps has his highest value in RF, compared to LF/1B/DH) and getting Dunn's contract off the books.

 

The problem with that is Dunn is younger than Konerko, he's left-handed and he probably has a better chance of having two more excellent offensive seasons in 2013 and 2014 than Paulie does.

 

Then you're still left with some difficult questions:

 

1) What pieces do you have to trade to acquire Bourjos

2) Will what's left of the starting rotation be enough to be competitive in 2013 and 2014?

3) Can they get anything back for Gavin Floyd which will make further weakening the starting rotation in 2013 worth it (long-term)? Or would they be better off exercising his 2013 option and waiting longer to trade him?

4) Is it worth it to keep Konerko and Dunn around if the team's still a 75-85 win proposition because of starting pitching issues?

Edited May 16, 2012 by caulfield12

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Ok, what am I missing here? Where are these Bourjos rumors coming from?

[justBLAZE]

Ok, what am I missing here? Where are these Bourjos rumors coming from?

 

No rumors, but he is available, hence the thread is in Diamond Club and not Pale Hose Talk.

 

 

[Goober]

I believe it's spelled 'Peeder'

[LittleHurt05]

Ok, what am I missing here? Where are these Bourjos rumors coming from?

 

There were rumors about the Nationals being interested in him last week. With his struggles, Trout's success, & the logjam in Anaheim, he might be available I guess.

[chw42]

So back to the Angels. They're penned in by the Wells contract (http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays), owing him $42 million for the next two seasons.

 

But they get the Torii Hunter deal off the books after this season AND they've already jettisoned Abreu.

 

Obviously, they have Trout in their future plans, but why wouldn't they just hold on to Bourjos for the remainder of this season, knowing they'll still need him in 2013 and beyond?

 

What would the White Sox have to offer the Angels (that they need in present-tense since Pujols/Wilson put them firmly in "win now" territory) which would make the trade even worth doing for Anaheim?

 

 

So, in the end, what's the best thing for the White Sox to do, trade Konerko and make Viciedo the primary 1B (sharing at-bats with Dan Johnson) with Dunn as the DH for two more years...making the OF DeAza/Bourjos/Rios...or trading Dunn and keeping Konerko?

 

Sentimentally, most would argue for keeping Paulie (also because of the uncertainty about Viciedo's defense with another position move back to 1B and the fact Viciedo perhaps has his highest value in RF, compared to LF/1B/DH) and getting Dunn's contract off the books.

 

The problem with that is Dunn is younger than Konerko, he's left-handed and he probably has a better chance of having two more excellent offensive seasons in 2013 and 2014 than Paulie does.

 

Then you're still left with some difficult questions:

 

1) What pieces do you have to trade to acquire Bourjos

2) Will what's left of the starting rotation be enough to be competitive in 2013 and 2014?

3) Can they get anything back for Gavin Floyd which will make further weakening the starting rotation in 2013 worth it (long-term)? Or would they be better off exercising his 2013 option and waiting longer to trade him?

4) Is it worth it to keep Konerko and Dunn around if the team's still a 75-85 win proposition because of starting pitching issues?

 

Oh s***, you already know he will be a White Sox next year then. Kenny will jump on him.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

There were rumors about the Nationals being interested in him last week. With his struggles, Trout's success, & the logjam in Anaheim, he might be available I guess.

 

Ok, thanks, that's what I was looking for. I was without internet all last weekend and figured I must have missed this. I didn't know they were trying to trade him.

[Benchwarmerjim]

if the Sox got Peter Bourjos, I would scream. He owns the Twins. (.321/.351/.736/1.087 slash line. 4 of his 19 career homers have comes against the Twins)

[witesoxfan]

So back to the Angels. They're penned in by the Wells contract (http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2011/1/24/1953584/vernon-wells-contract-angels-trade-blue-jays), owing him $42 million for the next two seasons.

 

But they get the Torii Hunter deal off the books after this season AND they've already jettisoned Abreu.

 

Obviously, they have Trout in their future plans, but why wouldn't they just hold on to Bourjos for the remainder of this season, knowing they'll still need him in 2013 and beyond?

 

What would the White Sox have to offer the Angels (that they need in present-tense since Pujols/Wilson put them firmly in "win now" territory) which would make the trade even worth doing for Anaheim?

 

 

So, in the end, what's the best thing for the White Sox to do, trade Konerko and make Viciedo the primary 1B (sharing at-bats with Dan Johnson) with Dunn as the DH for two more years...making the OF DeAza/Bourjos/Rios...or trading Dunn and keeping Konerko?

 

Sentimentally, most would argue for keeping Paulie (also because of the uncertainty about Viciedo's defense with another position move back to 1B and the fact Viciedo perhaps has his highest value in RF, compared to LF/1B/DH) and getting Dunn's contract off the books.

 

The problem with that is Dunn is younger than Konerko, he's left-handed and he probably has a better chance of having two more excellent offensive seasons in 2013 and 2014 than Paulie does.

 

Then you're still left with some difficult questions:

 

1) What pieces do you have to trade to acquire Bourjos

2) Will what's left of the starting rotation be enough to be competitive in 2013 and 2014?

3) Can they get anything back for Gavin Floyd which will make further weakening the starting rotation in 2013 worth it (long-term)? Or would they be better off exercising his 2013 option and waiting longer to trade him?

4) Is it worth it to keep Konerko and Dunn around if the team's still a 75-85 win proposition because of starting pitching issues?

 

tl;dr

 

This post could have ended after the third paragraph/stanza/whatever. The Angels aren't going to trade him unless they get a virtual king's ransom in return because they have a ton of money committed in the next few years, primarily through raises to current players. If you add up all the raises and team options likely to be picked up following the season, the Angels could very easily end up adding like $10-20 million even considering Hunter is coming off the books.

Edited May 17, 2012 by witesoxfan

[knightni]

Predicting 2013 or 2014 here...

 

KW trades for Torii Hunter.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Predicting 2013 or 2014 here...

 

KW trades for Torii Hunter.

 

 

And forces him into CF even though the days of Hunter as a Gold Glove-caliber player at that position are at least five years behind him.

 

 

[GREEDY]

To answer everyone's questions/comments...

 

- Where would he play? Like I said, there is there is no room for him because Paulie and Dunn have Dayan blocked from 1B/DH. I guess the wheels falling off for Alejandro would be the most likely scenario that would lead to an opening but I am not rooting against De Aza.

 

- Who would we give up for him? I have no real idea what his value is, but for the sake of argument I'll wildly speculate that any of our relievers and a very young prospect would likely do it. The Angels do not have much room for improvement on their major league roster.

 

- "He doesn't have the pop for US Cellular". I am of the belief that if he ever comes around as an actual major league hitter he will have close to 20 HR pop. I guess what I am saying is that if the kid can make it as an everyday player, he'll have some pop. He is not Juan Pierre as someone claimed earlier. Also, I will also wildly speculate that the line drive hitter or the "warning track power" kind of guy is the precisely the player that will receive the most benefit from playing 81 on the southside. A small sample size here for sure, but KW has missed so far with the big OBP/OPS free agents he has acquired.

 

- "He has sucked thus far". Yep, got it, I understand. Start your own "if Evan Longoria was ever available he would be a great asset", or "If KW could only acquire Justin Upton, now that'd be somtin" threads. His 2011 season wasn't overly impressive, but again, it is not often when a player that has the chance to put up a 20/.280/.850, 30 steals and gold glove outfield season... is available still under team control.

 

Generally, young players that are available are very flawed, and it is usually their defense that is in question. This kid does all the little things right and it is just a question if he can be an everyday hitter. If the price tag is big, it would be a pretty risky acquisition, but for me it is a risk worth taking.

[Jake]

I feel like there are lots of guys that have done everything right, except hit. We have several of them on our roster. That doesn't mean you only buy high on prospects, but I don't feel that's a great argument. I also feel like you are saying his ceiling is Alejandro De Aza.

[chw42]

I feel like there are lots of guys that have done everything right, except hit. We have several of them on our roster. That doesn't mean you only buy high on prospects, but I don't feel that's a great argument. I also feel like you are saying his ceiling is Alejandro De Aza.

 

His ceiling offensively probably is Alejandro De Aza. Hey, there's nothing wrong with putting up a .800 OPS as a CFer, especially if you have the defensive skills of Bourjos.

[Jake]

His ceiling offensively probably is Alejandro De Aza. Hey, there's nothing wrong with putting up a .800 OPS as a CFer, especially if you have the defensive skills of Bourjos.

 

I am pleased with ADA

 

Don't know why you should trade for someone that may be ADA, when you have ADA

[chw42]

I am pleased with ADA

 

Don't know why you should trade for someone that may be ADA, when you have ADA

 

There's also nothing wrong with having 2 Alejandro De Aza type players, haha. Especially one that can play CFer like SpiderMan.