NATO Chicago

[StrangeSox]

lol, yes, independent investigations done at the behest of the university by apolitical research groups into the facts of the UC Davis case are "propaganda."

[southsider2k5]

lol, yes, independent investigations done at the behest of the university by apolitical research groups into the facts of the UC Davis case are "propaganda."

 

The sad thing is, I am sure you will get the incident you so badly want during NATO. That is exactly why they had to tell people not to get arrested during May Day. If a protest is supposed to be peaceful, why do organizers have to explicitly tell people not to get into trouble? Because peaceful protests don't make the news like violent ones do. That is why illegal acts have to accompany them to some extent. Do just enough to get the reaction you are looking for, and then start the cameras.

[StrangeSox]

The sad thing is, I am sure you will get the incident you so badly want during NATO. That is exactly why they had to tell people not to get arrested during May Day. If a protest is supposed to be peaceful, why do organizers have to explicitly tell people not to get into trouble? Because peaceful protests don't make the news like violent ones do. That is why illegal acts have to accompany them to some extent. Do just enough to get the reaction you are looking for, and then start the cameras.

 

I want no incidents. It's good leadership to coach people on passive resistance and remaining non-violent at protest workshops. This is always done, and it's a good thing, yet you're trying to use it as evidence that everyone is just itching for a riot.

 

But look at what you're doing: after flailing around for a bunch of nonsense justifications in the UC Davis case and not getting a foothold at the time, you refuse to even look at the compilation of the facts of the case because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you don't have to reevaluate what you think you know about protest movements, you can always justify any reaction to them.

 

 

It's all right here. Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based report on the UC Davis incident as "propaganda?"

[southsider2k5]

I want no incidents. It's good leadership to coach people on passive resistance and remaining non-violent at protest workshops. This is always done, and it's a good thing, yet you're trying to use it as evidence that everyone is just itching for a riot.

 

But look at what you're doing: after flailing around for a bunch of nonsense justifications in the UC Davis case and not getting a foothold at the time, you refuse to even look at the compilation of the facts of the case because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you don't have to reevaluate what you think you know about protest movements, you can always justify any reaction to them.

 

 

It's all right here. Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based report on the UC Davis incident as "propaganda?"

 

Even that is true from more than just your point of view, that doesn't make it a universal rule. Again, they had to tell the May Day protests to not commit violent acts and to not get arrested. If the point is a peaceful protest, shouldn't that be the assumption, and not a rule you have to tell people?

 

The funny thing is I am sure I have been around more of these things than you have, and not just reading websites that support my point of view.

[StrangeSox]

"Been around" or actually "been involved with?" Know people who organize? Been questioned by the FBI for loose affiliations with people who are harassed for being organizers?

 

Nonviolent protest workshops are routinely held and routinely preach nonviolence--it's sorta the point! That people are coached on non-violent protesting and non-violent, passive resistance isn't proof that they're violent. That is an absurd conclusion.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

[southsider2k5]

"Been around" or actually "been involved with?" Know people who organize? Been questioned by the FBI for loose affiliations with people who are harassed for being organizers?

 

Nonviolent protest workshops are routinely held and routinely preach nonviolence--it's sorta the point! That people are coached on non-violent protesting and non-violent, passive resistance isn't proof that they're violent. That is an absurd conclusion.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

 

It is proof that there is a violent element to them, to some extent.

[StrangeSox]

It's proof that uncoached, inexperienced people may act stupid (or be ignorant of what "passive resistance" means and general protest and police tactics) and that coaching them can eliminate violence, just like in the May Day protests you think support your claims of inherent violence.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

[southsider2k5]

It's proof that uncoached, inexperienced people may act stupid (or be ignorant of what "passive resistance" means and general protest and police tactics) and that coaching them can eliminate violence, just like in the May Day protests you think support your claims of inherent violence.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

 

That funny, because I can't recall many of the protests I have been a part of being told not to act violently or get arrested, such as the teachers union or the tea party. Yet that is a necessity here. Why is that?

[GoSox05]

That funny, because I can't recall many of the protests I have been a part of being told not to act violently or get arrested, such as the teachers union or the tea party. Yet that is a necessity here. Why is that?

 

 

Because the left are all evil terrorists who want to see the destruction of capitalism.

 

plus they smell funny.

[StrangeSox]

That funny, because I can't recall many of the protests I have been a part of being told not to act violently or get arrested, such as the teachers union or the tea party. Yet that is a necessity here. Why is that?

 

Scale, scope and expected response post-Seattle.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

[NorthSideSox72]

This is buster material now. Please either cut out the political talk (or at least tone it down), or we'll have to carve up and/or move the thread.

 

[southsider2k5]

Scale, scope and expected response post-Seattle.

 

Why are you dismissing an objective, fact-based, apolitical report on UC Davis as propaganda? It isn't just some website that supports my point of view but a professional report led by a former California Supreme Court Justice and aided by an independent research firm. How is this "propaganda" that you can hand-wave away to continue "they were asking for it!" naïveté?

 

I was never to any real protest pre-Seattle. They all have the perspective.

 

I love how hung up on the one report of the one instance you are. If it didn't agree with you, you wouldn't be talking about it, which is why you keep trying to switch the subject back to it, instead of the likelihood that groups are/were planning violent protests, especially in this case.

[Balta1701]

I was never to any real protest pre-Seattle. They all have the perspective.

 

I love how hung up on the one report of the one instance you are. If it didn't agree with you, you wouldn't be talking about it, which is why you keep trying to switch the subject back to it, instead of the likelihood that groups are/were planning violent protests, especially in this case.

Somewhere 6 months ago I posted a detailed look at how post-Seattle, the police preparations for any sort of protest have become much more aggressive and militaristic as well, how they literally are going in expecting to have a fight as part of their standard operating procedure.

[southsider2k5]

Somewhere 6 months ago I posted a detailed look at how post-Seattle, the police preparations for any sort of protest have become much more aggressive and militaristic as well, how they literally are going in expecting to have a fight as part of their standard operating procedure.

 

They have to. Or else you get something like what happened in Vancouver post cup.

[Balta1701]

They have to. Or else you get something like what happened in Vancouver post cup.

But then you also wind up with things like Oakland.

[StrangeSox]

I love how hung up on the one report of the one instance you are. If it didn't agree with you, you wouldn't be talking about it, which is why you keep trying to switch the subject back to it,

 

I'm bringing it up because it so completely contradicts your fundamental view of leftist protests; because of how hilariously wrong you were in that previous thread where you were making the same claim; and how you proudly announced your refusal to even look at the facts of the case because it's "propaganda."

 

instead of the likelihood that groups are/were planning violent protests, especially in this case.

 

Yes, organizers telling people to not be violent and not get arrested is proof positive of people organizing violent protests. This is iron-clad logic.

 

[southsider2k5]

But then you also wind up with things like Oakland.

 

Or groups trying to blow up bridges...

[StrangeSox]

But then you also wind up with things like Oakland.

 

Vancouver is an excellent example of the violence inherent in left-wing protest movements.

[StrangeSox]

Or groups trying to blow up bridges...

Or abortion clinics, or organizing militias to kill local cops to draw in the real targets: federal LEO's.

 

[StrangeSox]

more leftist protest destruction:

 

 

Gee, it's almost like the potential for violence and rioting is something inherent to large-scale protests regardless of ideological alignment! And that non-violent organizers will try to curtail this potential, but smart people know to otherwise Be Prepared in case it gets out of hand and they're exposed to pepper spray.

Edited May 17, 2012 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

I'm bringing it up because it so completely contradicts your fundamental view of leftist protests; because of how hilariously wrong you were in that previous thread where you were making the same claim; and how you proudly announced your refusal to even look at the facts of the case because it's "propaganda."

 

 

 

Yes, organizers telling people to not be violent and not get arrested is proof positive of people organizing violent protests. This is iron-clad logic.

 

So would you have posted the UC Davis report if it didn't support your POV? Why didn't you pick a report that demonstrated that there were violent elements in these groups? If you are being so neutral and unbiased that is. How about a report from Montreal last night where people started smashing private property and turned a protest violent?

[StrangeSox]

So would you have posted the UC Davis report if it didn't support your POV? Why didn't you pick a report that demonstrated that there were violent elements in these groups? If you are being so neutral and unbiased that is.

 

If I had come across it, yes. I've posted updates to threads/discussions months after the original discussions that show I was wrong. Did it recently regarding a SCOTUS ruling in the Dem thread, though I don't remember the details.

 

But we had a long, multi-page discussion over the UC Davis incident in which you tried coming up with justification after justification. When the report was released, I read the entire thing. Yeah, I felt vindicated, because I was completely right and you were completely, unequivocally wrong. Now you refuse to even read the damned thing, dismissing it as "propaganda" without knowing anything about it. And I'm supposed to take your identical statements on this protest with any amount of credibility because...?

 

How about a report from Montreal last night where people started smashing private property and turned a protest violent?

 

What about it? Does it prove your contention that all these protesters are hoping it turns violent? That people taking precautions by wearing bandannas know they're about to do something to warrant being pepper sprayed?

 

 

edit: I mean, we know the answers to those questions: unequivocally no, because it didn't turn violent yesterday and nobody was pepper sprayed or did anything to warrant that response. Those people in the photos that pissed jenks off didn't end up doing anything wrong and so the anger was much ado about nothing.

Edited May 17, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

Or even the non-violent but illegal "peaceful protest" that happened 2 days ago, when people bumrushed into the AON building towards Obama's NATO HQ. Totally peaceful. They had every right to enter the building!

 

Look, I agree that it's unfair to paint the entire leftist protesting community as being violent. But you're being entirely dishonest by pretending like these things don't almost always end up with SOME violence. This City has spent MONTHS preparing for this weekend. That's not because of some unjustified fear for what these groups intend to do. Yes, as Balta said, this has become part of the protocol, but that's specifically because of prior events. When people sitting in a public plaza are beaten I'll agree the response is too much. Until then, it's ludicrous that people go into a protest EXPECTING to get pepper sprayed. The intent is 100% to get into the middle of a confrontation.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[NorthSideSox72]

LAST WARNING, since you folks apparently didn't read the first one. This is the end of the political B.S., or else I'm moving the thread.

 

[StrangeSox]

Or even the non-violent but illegal "peaceful protest" that happened 2 days ago, when people bumrushed into the AON building towards Obama's NATO HQ. Totally peaceful. They had every right to enter the building!

 

That's peaceful and non-violent. That doesn't mean non-disruptive, as the goal of protests is to create tension.

 

Look, I agree that it's unfair to paint the entire leftist protesting community as being violent. But you're being entirely dishonest by pretending like these things don't almost always end up with SOME violence. This City has spent MONTHS preparing for this weekend. That's not because of some unjustified fear for what these groups intend to do. Yes, as Balta said, this has become part of the protocol, but that's specifically because of prior events. When people sitting in a public plaza are beaten I'll agree the response is too much. Until then, it's ludicrous that people go into a protest EXPECTING to get pepper sprayed. The intent is 100% to get into the middle of a confrontation.

 

The intent is to 100% get into a confrontation, except all those times that doesn't really happen, or all those times that people are pepper sprayed with no justification. People standing in a public area were beaten last fall at OWS protests (I forget which city, maybe Balta remembers and can link). People at UC Davis were unjustly pepper sprayed for forming a line on the sidewalk in the quad. People in NY were unjustly sprayed in the face while doing nothing more than shouting beyond a barricade.

 

These things don't "almost always" end up with violence.