It must be said - Hawk Harrelson has to go

[iamshack]

If they continue to lose it will be an embarrassment.

Well that is the brilliance of it...he already is a bit of an embarrassment...this is really nothing new...so we may as well embrace it at this point.

[Eminor3rd]

"How can a team get a W if the pitcher can't get his W, Brian?"

 

LOL

[Eminor3rd]

Hawk definitely still uses a typewriter.

 

Haha no way, he talks about his MLB At Bat sponsored iPad every game.

[Big Hurtin]

Well that is the brilliance of it...he already is a bit of an embarrassment...this is really nothing new...so we may as well embrace it at this point.

 

And the thread comes full circle to why it was started.

[Dick Allen]

I don't understand this entire embarrassment angle. Who, other than Sox fans on a message board is even paying much attention to this? I don't think Yankee, Red Sox, Reds, Angels or any of the other teams fans give a crap about what Hawk thinks about sabermetrics.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I don't understand this entire embarrassment angle. Who, other than Sox fans on a message board is even paying much attention to this? I don't think Yankee, Red Sox, Reds, Angels or any of the other teams fans give a crap about what Hawk thinks about sabermetrics.

It's an embarrassment for the franchise in the eyes of fans and potential fans, not that other teams' fans will laugh at them.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I don't understand this entire embarrassment angle. Who, other than Sox fans on a message board is even paying much attention to this? I don't think Yankee, Red Sox, Reds, Angels or any of the other teams fans give a crap about what Hawk thinks about sabermetrics.

Looking around the web on various sites and boards, everyone seems to know who Hawk is. Not related to this incident but just in general. I find it odd because I can't name very many team announcers at all. I don't find him to be an embarassment though. I like him and appreciate the attention he brings us that we otherwise usually lack.

[iamshack]

Looking around the web on various sites and boards, everyone seems to know who Hawk is. Not related to this incident but just in general. I find it odd because I can't name very many team announcers at all. I don't find him to be an embarassment though. I like him and appreciate the attention he brings us that we otherwise usually lack.

Everyone knows who he is...and everyone else rips him...I don't really care either...he is OUR Hawk!

[Dick Allen]

It's an embarrassment for the franchise in the eyes of fans and potential fans, not that other teams' fans will laugh at them.

It seems people here seem to be embarrassed by Hawk's views. I don't understand why. I guess it's just part of the gig of being a White Sox fan. Funny thing is, Hawk knows more about the game than probably 99% or more of the people he's "embarrassing". The Sox certainly were not embarrassed, or they wouldn't have let him go on TV.

[StrangeSox]

It seems people here seem to be embarrassed by Hawk's views. I don't understand why. I guess it's just part of the gig of being a White Sox fan. Funny thing is, Hawk knows more about the game than probably 99% or more of the people he's "embarrassing". The Sox certainly were not embarrassed, or they wouldn't have let him go on TV.

It's an embarrassment for the franchise, not for me personally.

 

I don't see any evidence that Hawk knows more about the game than 99% of the people here. About actually playing the game at the professional level? Sure, for however relevant the 60's experiences still are. For GM'ing a team? Sure, for however relevant his disastrous run in the 80's still is. About the modern day ins-and-outs of baseball, especially in-game strategy? He seems to be proudly and willfully ignorant.

[IlliniKrush]

Looking around the web on various sites and boards, everyone seems to know who Hawk is. Not related to this incident but just in general. I find it odd because I can't name very many team announcers at all. I don't find him to be an embarassment though. I like him and appreciate the attention he brings us that we otherwise usually lack.

Your last two sentences could have also described Ozzie Guillen.

 

It seems people here seem to be embarrassed by Hawk's views. I don't understand why. I guess it's just part of the gig of being a White Sox fan. Funny thing is, Hawk knows more about the game than probably 99% or more of the people he's "embarrassing". The Sox certainly were not embarrassed, or they wouldn't have let him go on TV.

Doubtful at best. Playing the game doesn't equal knowing the game better, it's such a pointless card to play. What is it, 2-3 GMs right now actually played the game at the MLB level?

 

He thinks he knows the game so well and has it all figured out, that's why he ignores all these advanced metrics. Those metrics help people understand the game better than him. He's outright refusing to learn more and gather more accurate information.

Edited April 26, 2013 by IlliniKrush

[iamshack]

Your last two sentences could have also described Ozzie Guillen.

 

 

Doubtful at best. Playing the game doesn't equal knowing the game better, it's such a pointless card to play. What is it, 2-3 GMs right now actually played the game?

 

He thinks he knows the game so well and has it all figured out, that's why he ignores all these advanced metrics. Those metrics help people understand the game better than him. He's outright refusing to learn more and gather more accurate information.

And I agree with everything you said.

 

Now if you were Brooks, how would you spin this whole thing?

[witesoxfan]

I think he was being sarcastic by throwing out fake stuff...I think.

 

I don't think you know that definitively.

[Dick Allen]

It's an embarrassment for the franchise, not for me personally.

 

I don't see any evidence that Hawk knows more about the game than 99% of the people here. About actually playing the game at the professional level? Sure, for however relevant the 60's experiences still are. For GM'ing a team? Sure, for however relevant his disastrous run in the 80's still is. About the modern day ins-and-outs of baseball, especially in-game strategy? He seems to be proudly and willfully ignorant.

There's plenty of evidence.

[StrangeSox]

There's plenty of evidence.

oh, ok.

 

just browse through the archives of FJM (man I wish they were still around) for many, many examples and rebuttals to that argument.

[southsidepride15]

It's an embarrassment for the franchise, not for me personally.

 

I don't see any evidence that Hawk knows more about the game than 99% of the people here. About actually playing the game at the professional level? Sure, for however relevant the 60's experiences still are. For GM'ing a team? Sure, for however relevant his disastrous run in the 80's still is. About the modern day ins-and-outs of baseball, especially in-game strategy? He seems to be proudly and willfully ignorant.

 

Stats are great, but like he said (and Harold had his back on this) even with the information being there for the manager there is still an instinct and a gut feeling for THAT moment. I think sabermetrics have thier place in the game without doubt, but I don't think that you can use sabermetrics for every situation of every game.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Your last two sentences could have also described Ozzie Guillen.

 

 

Doubtful at best. Playing the game doesn't equal knowing the game better, it's such a pointless card to play. What is it, 2-3 GMs right now actually played the game at the MLB level?

 

He thinks he knows the game so well and has it all figured out, that's why he ignores all these advanced metrics. Those metrics help people understand the game better than him. He's outright refusing to learn more and gather more accurate information.

I was going to bring up Ozzie actually. Without him and to a lesser extent Buehrle, we have no one to make headlines, especially nationally. Hawk is just trying to pick up the slack. Thankfully though, he isn't doing it with bigoted comments and any decisions he makes does not actually affect the team.

[caulfield12]

Is there ANY connection to be made between the announcing teams for the Rays (including Dave Wills, former Sox pre/post-game guy or Maddon/Martinez/Scioscia tree of managing), Angels, Brewers (Roenicke, Scioscia tree), Padres (Bud Black, Scioscia tree), A's (Beane), Astros (Luhnow), Giants, Cubs (Epstein) Red Sox (Bill James), Rangers (Daniels), etc., and their team or front office philosophies?

 

I think it's pretty crazy to leap to the conclusion that somehow it would affect the fans or turn off fans or draw more young/quantitative minds to the Sox if Hawk did a 180 and spent the entire broadcast throwing out SABR stats.

 

For example, would it really help to sell the new Astros' philosophy if they hired a NASA rocket scientist to go along with their MIT/CAL Tech-trained play by play guy and let's say JP Ricciardi or DePodesta as their analyst?

 

 

Although I do agree that SABR analysis is easier to fit into a t.v. broadcast, with all the time in-between pitches and batters, with on screen graphics and the power of modern technology behind you, HDTV, etc.....you just don't have as much time on radio to throw all those numbers into game without overwhelming the listener (although Farmer and DJ drive me crazy not even mentioning the score for 20-30 minutes at a time).

 

If nothing else, looking at "hot zones" for pitchers and "cold zones" for hitters ads something to the broadcast....to the strategy of how to attack a hitter, and that's also much harder to get across via radio. Unfortunately, Harrelson's more likely to use pitch-trax to argue about balls and strikes than he is to look at the analytical side of getting hitters out like Stone Pony does.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Stats are great, but like he said (and Harold had his back on this) even with the information being there for the manager there is still an instinct and a gut feeling for THAT moment. I think sabermetrics have thier place in the game without doubt, but I don't think that you can use sabermetrics for every situation of every game.

 

I don't think anyone has said that you can, nor does that do anything to say that Hawk knows more than 99% of people.

 

In Hawk's world, teams wouldn't analyze advanced metrics to determine the best defensive positioning against a given hitter for a given pitcher, they wouldn't back up or dig into things scouts see. They'd keep playing baseball like it was 1970 and they'd get blown out of the water by less-physically talented teams who bothered with the technical side Hawk proudly remains ignorant of.

 

And, of course, there's no reason you can't embrace and use both.

[Dick Allen]

Your last two sentences could have also described Ozzie Guillen.

 

 

Doubtful at best. Playing the game doesn't equal knowing the game better, it's such a pointless card to play. What is it, 2-3 GMs right now actually played the game at the MLB level?

 

He thinks he knows the game so well and has it all figured out, that's why he ignores all these advanced metrics. Those metrics help people understand the game better than him. He's outright refusing to learn more and gather more accurate information.

This is ironic considering when I told you it was likely Rios missed a sign or attempted to steal on his own the other day, and pointed out some evidence, you quickly dismissed it and referred to my assumptions as stupid. Then it comes out Rios went on his own. Seems you are the one who thinks he has all the answers.

 

You don't necessarily have to play the game in the major leagues to be successful. That was proven. But I do think you have to be around it for a while. And experience is knowledge. A person working JP Morgan today who happened to be a saber-wizard in his spare time, would probably not be very successful if he were hired as a GM tomorrow.

 

Hawk knows a heck of a lot more about intricacies of hitting and pitching than most guys here will ever know. He doesn't know what WAR is, but the funny thing is, most of the people who throw WAR around have zero idea how it's even calculated. Yet they are "knowlegable", and Hawk is an "embarrassment"

Edited April 26, 2013 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I was going to bring up Ozzie actually. Without him and to a lesser extent Buehrle, we have no one to make headlines, especially nationally. Hawk is just trying to pick up the slack. Thankfully though, he isn't doing it with bigoted comments and any decisions he makes does not actually affect the team.

 

 

No AJ, no Buehrle, no Guillens, no Cowley, no Mariotti.

 

That adds up to a publicity/identity problem for the White Sox.

 

Sale and Konerko and Rios are about as anti-controversial as they come. Maybe we do need a dash of Bryce Harper...or Albert Belle. When you have too many "vanilla" personalities on a team, that can lead to a certain amount of apathy and malaise. With Ventura last year, that blandness and general sense of calm and poise was viewed as a strength, but over time, it can also lead to its own set of problems (see Manuel, Jerry).

 

 

 

It is kind of amusing that the most media savvy member of the organization is probably Hawkins, who's projected to be the one player with superstar ability in our system....and yet everyone seems more concerned that his twitter usage and touting his homers is distracting away from bigger issues like learning how to hit, not strike out 60-65% of the time or just basic baseball skills.

[Balta1701]

Sale and Konerko and Rios are about as anti-controversial as they come.

Tell that to the residents of Torotno?

[Steve9347]

Tell that to the residents of Torotno?

[caulfield12]

I don't think anyone has said that you can, nor does that do anything to say that Hawk knows more than 99% of people.

 

In Hawk's world, teams wouldn't analyze advanced metrics to determine the best defensive positioning against a given hitter for a given pitcher, they wouldn't back up or dig into things scouts see. They'd keep playing baseball like it was 1970 and they'd get blown out of the water by less-physically talented teams who bothered with the technical side Hawk proudly remains ignorant of.

 

And, of course, there's no reason you can't embrace and use both.

 

 

And yet Hawk is always complimentary towards guys like Epstein, Daniels, Joe Maddon, Mike Scioscia, etc.

 

I'm sure he is well aware of the cerebral side of the game. What most "old school" or "old guard" types resent is the DePodesta types who have risen to top leadership positions in baseball organizations without much experience of the game itself.

 

If DePodesta had put in 8-10 years working in the minors leagues or grinding it out as a scout, then he could accept it.

 

But not the "young guns" bypassing the men of his generation....and then seeing "his guys" being put out to pasture.

 

This was the entire premise of the movie "The Trouble With the Curve."

 

Without giving the entire movie away, all the quant/SABR scouts in the world can't analyze a fundamental weakness which will be exposed as a high draft pick has to adjust to tougher competition...or be able to scout and sign that "diamond in the rough" that's staring them in the face.

[caulfield12]

Tell that to the residents of Torotno?

 

I mean in terms of the "national radar" of baseball players in MLB, Alex Rios won't register in the Top 200 or record a positive Q number except for those who follow his ups and downs statistically (roto league owners) or appreciate his all-around ability as a player from watching him on a daily basis.

 

Heck, outside of Chicago, it's amazing how so few know Konerko and Sale.