witesoxfan Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (flavum @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 11:55 AM) Isn't it just obvious that it's a control thing with Hawk? He wants baseball to stay the way he played it where nobody had information. Since it's not what he had, it's worse in his mind. Please retire. Go back to Orlando, and play Bay Hill everyday. "Harrelson teeing up at the Par 4 6th, looks like he was a 3-iron to hit the short fairway. Good thing too, he only hits the fairway 42% of the time with a 5-wood or bigger and he's terrible in the rough with a 31% recovery rate. Using the iron on Par 4s has worked for him too as he hits the fairway 83% of the time and is on in regulation 72% of the time." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) It's a bit ironic, because Frank Thomas was always considered "stats first, team victories second" type of player. More selfish than team/winning-oriented. And yet I'm sure that Harrelson would claim that Frank Thomas was a "winning player" and could have been a dominant hitter in any time period of baseball history, etc. Edited April 25, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 So Hawk is going on MLB network with Brian Kenny today, this should be good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) So Hawk is going on MLB network with Brian Kenny today, this should be good I'm sure it will be tame and the worst part of it will be Harold Reynolds screaming, "I'M WITCHA HAWK!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) So Hawk is going on MLB network with Brian Kenny today, this should be good Oh joy, another chance to embarrass this franchise and the smart people who love this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Has Harrelson essentially replaced Ozzie Guillen drama as our national symbol/identity? I wonder if they still have the idea that any publicity is better than no publicity at all? Because you'd have to believe that along with Ventura and Konerko, in the past year, Harrelson's become just as recognized for his broadcasting "issues" than Chris Sale for becoming an elite pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxsoxsoxsox Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) So Hawk is going on MLB network with Brian Kenny today, this should be good Today 3pm central? CAN'T WAIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) As if we didn't know this already, Hawk is clueless. This is absolutely ridiculous, he doesn't even make any sense. You need to hear it, but for those that want a short summary... Some notes: Hawk saw the movie Moneyball but didn't read the book. Baseball is all about defense. Sabermetrics isn't ready yet and won't be for 40-50 years. Sabermetrics doesn't address defense, bunting, speed. TWTW is the most important stat. The Will To Win. Leadership is the most important thing, aka Peavy throwing 120 pitches or Konerko's leadership, not stats. Again, he emphasizes THE WILL TO WIN. That trumps all. The only thing that counts is a W. Wins are the most important stat for a pitcher. Gotta have the W. Pitching and defense is how you win. In case this hasn't been mentioned, TWTW is how you win baseball games. ********** He never addressed any good counter argument made, just kept spewing nonsense. Edited April 25, 2013 by IlliniKrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hi grandpa https://twitter.com/MDGonzales/status/32752...9428097/photo/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 03:49 PM) As if we didn't know this already, Hawk is clueless. This is absolutely ridiculous, he doesn't even make any sense. You need to hear it, but for those that want a short summary... Some notes: Hawk saw the movie Moneyball but didn't read the book. Baseball is all about defense. Sabermetrics isn't ready yet and won't be for 40-50 years. Sabermetrics doesn't address defense, bunting, speed. TWTW is the most important stat. The Will To Win. Leadership is the most important thing, aka Peavy throwing 120 pitches or Konerko's leadership, not stats. Again, he emphasizes THE WILL TO WIN. That trumps all. The only thing that counts is a W. Wins are the most important stat for a pitcher. Gotta have the W. Pitching and defense is how you win. In case this hasn't been mentioned, TWTW is how you win baseball games. ********** He never addressed any good counter argument made, just kept spewing nonsense. Ugh. These arguments about metric analysis vs skill scouting are great, except when the extremists who think one way or the other is the ONLY way jump in. Sounds like Hawk took one extreme. Did the other guy at least leave some doors open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 01:49 PM) As if we didn't know this already, Hawk is clueless. This is absolutely ridiculous, he doesn't even make any sense. You need to hear it, but for those that want a short summary... Some notes: Hawk saw the movie Moneyball but didn't read the book. Baseball is all about defense. Sabermetrics isn't ready yet and won't be for 40-50 years. Sabermetrics doesn't address defense, bunting, speed. TWTW is the most important stat. The Will To Win. Leadership is the most important thing, aka Peavy throwing 120 pitches or Konerko's leadership, not stats. Again, he emphasizes THE WILL TO WIN. That trumps all. The only thing that counts is a W. Wins are the most important stat for a pitcher. Gotta have the W. Pitching and defense is how you win. In case this hasn't been mentioned, TWTW is how you win baseball games. ********** He never addressed any good counter argument made, just kept spewing nonsense. Of course Hawk can't make an intelligent response to sabremetrics because he doesn't study them . Much like myself especially defensively, I don't understand how defense can be measured taking all things into consideration. Anticipation can't be measured or positioning or response to the ball off the bat , poor routes that a fielder can make up for with pure speed, how an outfielder plays a long deep fly ball as opposed to how he plays a line drive and those same things off a RH bat or LH bat. A defender can be good at some of those things but not all and until you measure the kind of fly balls he's tracking how can you accurately measure his defense ? If a teams pitching is poor could be someone rated as a poor outfielder is seeing an inordinate amount of hard hit balls as opposed to a good pitching staff and routine plays or has a good coaching staff who positions you better . Or maybe I have no idea like Hawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:11 PM) Ugh. These arguments about metric analysis vs skill scouting are great, except when the extremists who think one way or the other is the ONLY way jump in. Sounds like Hawk took one extreme. Did the other guy at least leave some doors open? All he kept saying was TWTW, defense wins, and you gotta have the W, it's all about the W. Any point Brian tried to make, Hawk answered with something ridiculous like I just mentioned. Pure gibberish from an old man. Edited April 25, 2013 by IlliniKrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Please let this be available online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:17 PM) Please let this be available online. It was just replayed on B&B, surprised you didn't hear it. I'm sure it'll be somewhere momentarily if not already. Edited April 25, 2013 by IlliniKrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:15 PM) All he kept saying was TWTW, defense wins, and you gotta have the W, it's all about the W. Any point Brian tried to make, Hawk answered with something ridiculous like I just mentioned. Pure gibberish from an old man. It's true, the White Sox's problem isn't collective suckitude on offense, it's that they just don't Want It enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurtin Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Adam Dunn's TWtW is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 WtW is like a quantum state-you can't know it until the games have been played and you know who won. Then it becomes clear who had more Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:11 PM) Of course Hawk can't make an intelligent response to sabremetrics because he doesn't study them . Much like myself especially defensively, I don't understand how defense can be measured taking all things into consideration. Anticipation can't be measured or positioning or response to the ball off the bat , poor routes that a fielder can make up for with pure speed, how an outfielder plays a long deep fly ball as opposed to how he plays a line drive and those same things off a RH bat or LH bat. A defender can be good at some of those things but not all and until you measure the kind of fly balls he's tracking how can you accurately measure his defense ? If a teams pitching is poor could be someone rated as a poor outfielder is seeing an inordinate amount of hard hit balls as opposed to a good pitching staff and routine plays or has a good coaching staff who positions you better . Or maybe I have no idea like Hawk You are asking the right questions atleast. A lot of this is taken into account. I'd explain it, but I'd inevitably leave a few things out or explain something incorrectly. The best way to do this is to insert a FanGraphs link and let them explain http://www.fangraphs.com/library/defense/uzr/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 40 years from now when TWTW exists we're all going to look like idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I'm far from a saber guy and even I think Hawk sounded clueless. Wins maybe the most worthless stat for a pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 05:29 PM) 40 years from now when TWTW exists we're all going to look like idiots. Isn't that the call letters of the Chicago PBS affiliate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:29 PM) 40 years from now when TWTW exists we're all going to look like idiots. How would one calculate that? Size of penis divided by wins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:11 PM) Of course Hawk can't make an intelligent response to sabremetrics because he doesn't study them . Much like myself especially defensively, I don't understand how defense can be measured taking all things into consideration. Anticipation can't be measured or positioning or response to the ball off the bat , poor routes that a fielder can make up for with pure speed, how an outfielder plays a long deep fly ball as opposed to how he plays a line drive and those same things off a RH bat or LH bat. A defender can be good at some of those things but not all and until you measure the kind of fly balls he's tracking how can you accurately measure his defense ? If a teams pitching is poor could be someone rated as a poor outfielder is seeing an inordinate amount of hard hit balls as opposed to a good pitching staff and routine plays or has a good coaching staff who positions you better . Or maybe I have no idea like Hawk Not blindly trusting some metric is good. Not being interested enough in them to dig into the details and see if and how is addresses those questions is fine. But using your position as the broadcast announcer for a Major League Baseball team to profess and embrace ignorance and to denounce those who choose to look at new measurement and analytic techniques isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (Brian @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:32 PM) How would one calculate that? Size of penis divided by wins? You can't use any numbers to measure TWTW, go back to the drawing board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 25, 2013 -> 04:38 PM) You can't use any numbers to measure TWTW, go back to the drawing board. yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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