It must be said - Hawk Harrelson has to go

[chw42]

Yeah, I think most of the arguments on TV miss the main benefit of patience/plate discipline. The pundits tend to argue the value (or lack of value) of a walk, and/or the value of OBP. But the real reason patience is important is because you are better of only swinging at good pitches. If you swing at bad pitches, two things happen: (1) you tend to get out, either via K or weak contact, and (2) pitchers never throw you good pitches, because they don't need to do so. If you are patient and willing to take a walk, you force the pitcher to choose between throwing you good pitches to hit or sending to to first base (which may not be ideal for a big hitter, but it is certainly better than making an out). So through patience, a hitter is really establishing a zone for himself. A hitter is forcing a pitcher to give him something to hit.

 

To me, the perfect case study for this is Paul Konerko. He has unquestionably lost bat speed, but has avoided steep decline by becoming a better, more disciplined hitter. He has to cheat on a fastball, but that's fine because he forces a pitcher to give him one. If you don't, he takes his base, or, if cornered, pokes one to right field.

 

I don't want Adam Dunn to GET walks, necessarily, I want him to ACCEPT walks so that he spends more time mashing fastballs for dingers -- or if the pitcher decides to pitch around him -- standing on first for Paulie.

 

When Harold Reynolds and Tom Verducci says good hitters should expand the zone to put the ball in play, I'm just baffled. Yeah, sure, we want our best hitters to swing at bad pitches. Let's help the pitcher out. I don't know why it doesn't make intuitive sense to prefer your hitter being on first to him being out.

 

The arguments Harold Reynolds uses for why pitcher wins are important baffles me...

 

[lostfan]

This is what I think. How many times does it occur the non saber guys think a guy is great and the saber guys say he sucks and vice versa?

Derek Jeter's defense

[chw42]

Or in certain cases, some players use advanced stats to evaluate their performance and find out what they can do better. Examples: Zack Greinke and Glen Perkins.

 

Advanced pitching stats like FIP can help a lot of pitchers keep their confidence and not get down on themselves too much. The idea that a stat can show you're doing something right when things aren't going well and has proven that eventually, things will probably get better can be a nice confidence boost to a pitcher with confidence issues (Greinke for instance).

 

And just to extend on this.

 

Over and over again, I hear guys like Hawk talk about how, as a hitter, you can't get too down on yourself. He talks about how Paul Konerko used to get all depressed during his slumps or even after a bad day at the plate. Advanced metrics can help players better understand why they are struggling and that maybe their struggles are just the result of bad luck. This was probably the case for Konerko in 2003 and 2008, when his BABIP was absurdly low and he hit in the .230s. Even if their struggles aren't due to bad luck (Mark Kotsay in 2010 for instance), just knowing that your bad batting average is not completely your fault can be a little bit more self-assuring. Baseball is a very mental game for the players, anybody who has played the game at any level will tell you that, and any sort of confidence can make a difference.

[chw42]

Derek Jeter's defense

 

Or gold gloves in general.

[lostfan]

Or gold gloves in general.

Right, with Jeter being Exhibit A.

 

The common refrain here is "the players and coaches know better than any numbers geek!" So you're telling me everyone who has a vote in the process watches every eligible player field like 700 times every year? GTFOH

[StrangeSox]

And just to extend on this.

 

Over and over again, I hear guys like Hawk talk about how, as a hitter, you can't get too down on yourself. He talks about how Paul Konerko used to get all depressed during his slumps or even after a bad day at the plate. Advanced metrics can help players better understand why they are struggling and that maybe their struggles are just the result of bad luck. This was probably the case for Konerko in 2003 and 2008, when his BABIP was absurdly low and he hit in the .230s. Even if their struggles aren't due to bad luck (Mark Kotsay in 2010 for instance), just knowing that your bad batting average is not completely your fault can be a little bit more self-assuring. Baseball is a very mental game for the players, anybody who has played the game at any level will tell you that, and any sort of confidence can make a difference.

 

They can also help explain why hard-hit balls to fielders aren't necessarily "hang wiff-em's" or unlucky breaks but the result of strategic defensive positioning based on comprehensive analysis.

[hammerhead johnson]

Goddamnit why does it have to be embarrassing to be a White Sox fan?

 

[caulfield12]

Or in certain cases, some players use advanced stats to evaluate their performance and find out what they can do better. Examples: Zack Greinke and Glen Perkins.

 

Advanced pitching stats like FIP can help a lot of pitchers keep their confidence and not get down on themselves too much. The idea that a stat can show you're doing something right when things aren't going well and has proven that eventually, things will probably get better can be a nice confidence boost to a pitcher with confidence issues (Greinke for instance).

 

 

Of course, this has never worked so well for the likes of Gavin or Javy, for example.

 

 

[justBLAZE]

Hawk didnt read or watch "Moneyball" but he knows whats in it and what not in it.

 

He did watch it.

[caulfield12]

He did watch it.

 

 

Probably just to see Royce Clayton trying to impersonate Miguel Tejada.

[Jake]

Probably just to see Royce Clayton trying to impersonate Miguel Tejada.

 

lol

[caulfield12]

Either that, or he got sentimental for Chad Bradford.

 

Interestingly, all the Moneyball reporting never added the fact that Olivo (the other side of the Bradford deal) became the key player in the trade to acquire Freddy Garcia, which got the White Sox the World Series title (along with Contreras for Loaiza) the A's never came close to...but who's to let a good story stand in the way of reality?

 

The year the White Sox won it all, Bradford was already on his way to the Red Sox.

[IlliniKrush]

I don't think Ventura has ever had someone try to steal 3rd with Dunn at bat. Alex isn't known for his baseball acumen. If Rios was going, Konerko, as slow as he is, could have made second without a throw. It's tough to admit you saying something was stupid was wrong, but you were way off.

 

If you don't know how WAR is calculated or any one of the other sabermetric numbers, I don't think you should consider yourself some knowledgable guy because you throw it around. In fact WAR is calculated in a couple different ways. BR and fangraphs have totally different numbers, and most say fangraphs is better, but a lot of the people who say it's better can't answer why. The poster who doesn't know how GDP is calculated but still trusts it, probably wouldn't go around saying he is an amateur economist.

Ventura has had people steal with Dunn at bat, which has been covered on this board and makes no sense.

 

If Konerko's going, you can guess where the throw is going to take the guaranteed out.

 

Again, the whole point of this thing is Hawk is willfully refusing information that can help assess talent, chances to win, etc. It's beyond ignorant and stupid. The fact that the Sox are going to try to rally around it makes it worse. Plus, the Sox front office uses it to help them put together the team! It doesn't make sense on any level. But hey, let's trot out this TWTW s***, because that's what matters.

 

Everyone take a few minutes and read this.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=20371

[Marty34]

Hawk was fantastic in that debate. I loved how he could not give one damn about sabermetrics, but Kenny was still trying to "educate" him on it.

[chw42]

Of course, this has never worked so well for the likes of Gavin or Javy, for example.

 

How do you know they look into those stats?

[Dick Allen]

Ventura has had people steal with Dunn at bat, which has been covered on this board and makes no sense.

 

If Konerko's going, you can guess where the throw is going to take the guaranteed out.

 

Again, the whole point of this thing is Hawk is willfully refusing information that can help assess talent, chances to win, etc. It's beyond ignorant and stupid. The fact that the Sox are going to try to rally around it makes it worse. Plus, the Sox front office uses it to help them put together the team! It doesn't make sense on any level. But hey, let's trot out this TWTW s***, because that's what matters.

 

Everyone take a few minutes and read this.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=20371

Not 3rd base.

Again you willfully disregarded information that turned out to be correct just because you want to always blame Ventura. You wouldn't even consider it. said it was stupid. It is exactly the same thing you are slamming Hawk for doing. Its pretty funny you still can't see it.

 

Also BP is obviously going to slam Hawk. They are in the sabermetric business. I don't think anyone here believes Hawk's total dismissal of sabermetrics is correct.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Hawk was mostly pulling Kenny's chain it was great. Also funny to see the sabermetric crowd up in arms about it.

[caulfield12]

But, is there any difference from Clint Eastwood talking to a chair and Harrelson admitting to not reading the book?

 

Is this just the PR/marketing department's way of saying, basically, we have nothing....and Ozzie's antics with the media are a thing of the past, so let's stir up a little controversy and debate to take the focus for awhile off the field?

 

Isn't this whole "Will To Win" covering up the biggest issue right now with the Sox, which is the overall lack of talent?

 

Verlander, Scherzer, Jackson, Cabrera and Fielder just had more of the "TWTW" last year? I don't think so. They were simply better...and all in the primes of their careers.

 

 

 

 

[iamshack]

Ventura has had people steal with Dunn at bat, which has been covered on this board and makes no sense.

 

If Konerko's going, you can guess where the throw is going to take the guaranteed out.

 

Again, the whole point of this thing is Hawk is willfully refusing information that can help assess talent, chances to win, etc. It's beyond ignorant and stupid. The fact that the Sox are going to try to rally around it makes it worse. Plus, the Sox front office uses it to help them put together the team! It doesn't make sense on any level. But hey, let's trot out this TWTW s***, because that's what matters.

 

Everyone take a few minutes and read this.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=20371

I get your point, but honestly, what would you do if you were Brooks?

[caulfield12]

I get your point, but honestly, what would you do if you were Brooks?

 

 

You can't control the play on the field, so you have to be very careful about using a tagline like that.

 

It's fine if you're the SF Giants or the St. Louis Cardinals, but it really doesn't apply to the White Sox at the moment...after all, we've only won one division crown in the past 9 seasons.

 

 

To be honest, I'd prefer "Everyone Loves to Root for the Underdog" or "Because Chicks Dig the Underdog" to Harrelson's nonsense.

 

It is better than "Make An Impact," I guess.

 

But, in general, generic lines like "Respect the Game" are better than one connected with this particular team winning.

 

 

 

 

[IlliniKrush]

Hawk was fantastic in that debate. I loved how he could not give one damn about sabermetrics, but Kenny was still trying to "educate" him on it.

Fantastic? Hardly.

 

Not 3rd base.

Again you willfully disregarded information that turned out to be correct just because you want to always blame Ventura. You wouldn't even consider it. said it was stupid. It is exactly the same thing you are slamming Hawk for doing. Its pretty funny you still can't see it.

 

Also BP is obviously going to slam Hawk. They are in the sabermetric business. I don't think anyone here believes Hawk's total dismissal of sabermetrics is correct.

Yes, throw would go to 2nd base there.

 

They are slamming Hawk because Hawk is a buffoon.

 

I get your point, but honestly, what would you do if you were Brooks?

Not embrace stupidity? Why does that have to turn into a rallying cry?

[iamshack]

Fantastic? Hardly.

 

 

Yes, throw would go to 2nd base there.

 

They are slamming Hawk because Hawk is a buffoon.

 

 

Not embrace stupidity? Why does that have to turn into a rallying cry?

Hah, this would be like walking around wearing the ski outfits Harry and Lloyd wore in Aspen and pretending you're not a douchebag...

[caulfield12]

Hah, this would be like walking around wearing the ski outfits Harry and Lloyd wore in Aspen and pretending you're not a douchebag...

 

 

Somehow I don't think "Dumb and Dumber" would work as a tagline, lol.

 

 

[Marty34]

Fantastic? Hardly.

 

 

Yes, throw would go to 2nd base there.

 

They are slamming Hawk because Hawk is a buffoon.

 

 

Not embrace stupidity? Why does that have to turn into a rallying cry?

 

Really need a sense of humor. I think this outfit should embrace #TWTW. After all Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick too.

[IlliniKrush]

Really need a sense of humor. I think this outfit should embrace #TWTW. After all Sabermetrics is largely a gimmick too.

Hawk's interview was beyond stupid, I didn't find it funny. It's actually sad that a major league broadcaster is that ignorant.

 

A gimmick? Uh, no. Gimmicks aren't used by front offices and managers to help determine the future of their franchise.

Edited April 27, 2013 by IlliniKrush