southsider2k5 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) Why not take this stance? You can't out-saber Theo and the Cubs, your biggest competitor. As far as it being a lie, that's ok. The Red Sox were built on PED's and the 2nd-largest payroll in MLB during Theo's years. Honestly... I am not sure why I (or the organization) should care. They have an awful team right now whose biggest hopes are all years away, if everything goes right for them. They also have the problem that a lot of the inefficiencies that Theo used to be able to exploit have now been shut down. They can't overspend on the draft, taking advantage of teams who couldn't spend anymore. They are capped in Latin America, where they used to be able to fight only a few teams for the top talent. Theo is also having a hard time convincing his top targets to come to the Cubs, along with the worst scheduling scenarios in baseball and the worst facilities in baseball, at least for a few more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:47 PM) Brooks suggested that rant to Hawk? Wha? I'd bet money that the idea to plant this as a campaign came from Brooks Boyer. The team just didn't accidentally have guys tweeting and T-shirts printed on a whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:53 PM) I'd bet money that the idea to plant this as a campaign came from Brooks Boyer. The team just didn't accidentally have guys tweeting and T-shirts printed on a whim. Interesting, had no idea. Seemed to me like an organic response to a hawk rant, but hey, why not preplan something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:54 PM) Interesting, had no idea. Seemed to me like an organic response to a hawk rant, but hey, why not preplan something like that. The amount of time he repeated TWTW, it sure seemed like a plant and that's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 10:54 AM) Interesting, had no idea. Seemed to me like an organic response to a hawk rant, but hey, why not preplan something like that. I think it was an organic response that came between the original rant and the interview. There was a week or 10 days between the original rant and the interview, and I don't think you had to be a rocket scientist to see what was going to happen. They made the best of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 You don't have to make the best out of anything. If Brooks started this than that's pretty dumb on his part. Let's take an old man crazy broadcaster, let him rant and rave and make no sense, and make it a rallying cry. On something that can't be measured, even through the FO disagrees with Hawk too. Adhere to the stupid I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:50 PM) This is just hilarious. We use stats and quantifiable things to evaluate players! Come to the north side! We use gibberish and don't believe in anything except a players TWTW factor, which you can't measure! Come to the south side! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:39 PM) Now you're just being weird. Why take this stance? Anti-Cubs? It's also a lie, Hahn uses this stuff. He also uses numbers, graphs, charts as much as any coach in the business. A guy can steal 3rd without a guy attempting to steal 2nd. Even if Rios was stealing 3rd from the dugout, it doesn't mean Konerko would have been running. We've covered this multiple times. You using "Paul wasn't running" isn't evidence it wasn't from the dugout. Until we heard who it was, the assumption is it was called. Paul not going doesn't do anything to counter that. That's funny, because he uses numbers to make most of his decisions. He's not a gut manager. Why don't you just admit you were wrong? You are out here ripping Hawk for being wrong, but when you were blatantly wrong because you have a specific target you want to blame, you refuse to admit it. A guy can steal third without the runner on first moving, but given a LH batter is up, Konerko was not being looked at, he had a far better shot at second than Rios did,at 3rd. BTW,Managers have been using numbers far before sabermetrics came to be when making decisions. Even the the teams that use sabermetrics the most employ advanced scouts. Shifts like the one used when Dunn bats have been part of the game for years. And if you don't think Maddon ever uses his "gut" you are wrong yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:05 PM) We use stats and quantifiable things to evaluate players! Come to the north side! We use gibberish and don't believe in anything except a players TWTW factor, which you can't measure! Come to the south side! Now you're getting it. It's genius marketing really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 11:03 AM) You don't have to make the best out of anything. If Brooks started this than that's pretty dumb on his part. Let's take an old man crazy broadcaster, let him rant and rave and make no sense, and make it a rallying cry. On something that can't be measured, even through the FO disagrees with Hawk too. Adhere to the stupid I guess. That's not what anyone is saying... The rant happened...then it started drawing national attention...then Brian Kenny goes on his own rant and Hawk responds by saying he has always respected him, but agrees to disagree. Kenny, feeling bad, invites Hawk on to make his case. At that point, you saw what was going to happen...it was an opportunity to try and run with it or do nothing and still have it be an embarrassment to the franchise. I don't understand what you think they had to lose by doing this? Every team has their own lame marketing campaigns...if the team wins, the fans buy into it and the players have their own fun with it. If the team sucks or is mediocre, everyone sort of shrugs it off and forgets about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:03 PM) You don't have to make the best out of anything. If Brooks started this than that's pretty dumb on his part. Let's take an old man crazy broadcaster, let him rant and rave and make no sense, and make it a rallying cry. On something that can't be measured, even through the FO disagrees with Hawk too. Adhere to the stupid I guess. Who are the players that sabremetrics are identifying that scouts aren't? Jeff Keppinger? Wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 02:13 PM) Who are the players that sabremetrics are identifying that scouts aren't? Jeff Keppinger? Wonderful. If you want an example from the Rays I think it's Zobrist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 11:13 AM) Who are the players that sabremetrics are identifying that scouts aren't? Jeff Keppinger? Wonderful. It's not really that the scouts don't identify them...most players that can play the game decently are going to be noticed by the scouts. The difference is in the fringe and margins. Identifying players that can be make contributions for next to nothing can save a lot of resources over the course of time. Yes, every once in awhile one of these guys will break out and really make hay, but the vast majority of your returns from advanced analysis is going to come from identifying players that can play above replacement value for replacement value or lesser resources. Edited April 27, 2013 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:14 PM) If you want an example from the Rays I think it's Zobrist. Zobrist is an excellent player and the sabermetricians should take credit for him. Is one player enough to justify the hype though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 11:27 AM) Zobrist is an excellent player and the sabermetricians should take credit for him. Is one player enough to justify the hype though? Zobrist was a 6th round draft pick...he's not so much a product of sabermetrics as much as he was a late bloomer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:26 PM) It's not really that the scouts don't identify them...most players that can play the game decently are going to be noticed by the scouts. The difference is in the fringe and margins. Identifying players that can be make contributions for next to nothing can save a lot of resources over the course of time. Yes, every once in awhile one of these guys will break out and really make hay, but the vast majority of your returns from advanced analysis is going to come from identifying players that can play above replacement value for replacement value or lesser resources. Fringe guys aren't going to be the difference unless you have enough top line talent acquired through the draft, trade, or free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:29 PM) Zobrist was a 6th round draft pick...he's not so much a product of sabermetrics as much as he was a late bloomer. Or a really bad Astros front office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 11:31 AM) Fringe guys aren't going to be the difference unless you have enough top line talent acquired through the draft, trade, or free agency. If you save yourself $10-15 million a year because of those fringe players, that can mean a lot of top line talent you are able to acquire through those methods you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:38 PM) If you save yourself $10-15 million a year because of those fringe players, that can mean a lot of top line talent you are able to acquire through those methods you mentioned. That's my argument against Ramirez. $9M for a bottom-of-the-order hitter is too much even if he is a very good defensive SS. According to sabermetrics he's worth it though. Edited April 27, 2013 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 11:45 AM) That's my argument against Ramirez. $9M for a bottom-of-the-order hitter is too much even if he is a very good defensive SS. According to sabermetrics he's worth it though. You're basing the opinion that he is not worth it on what though? Edited April 27, 2013 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:45 PM) That's my argument against Ramirez. $9M for a bottom-of-the-order hitter is too much even if he is a very good defensive SS. According to sabermetrics he's worth it though. The drop off between Keppinger and Beckham at 2B has been startling. I can't imagine what the drop off between Alexei and the next player down would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 01:47 PM) You're basing the opinion that he is not worth it on what though? Offensive numbers, I'm very skeptical of dWar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 12:45 PM) That's my argument against Ramirez. $9M for a bottom-of-the-order hitter is too much even if he is a very good defensive SS. According to sabermetrics he's worth it though. What market is this do tell? Are you using the Reinsdorf-"3rd city market in a big city market" scale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 02:20 PM) What market is this do tell? Are you using the Reinsdorf-"3rd city market in a big city market" scale? Why pay a bottom-of-the-order hitter that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 27, 2013 -> 03:13 PM) Why pay a bottom-of-the-order hitter that kind of money. Alexei offensively has been pretty much a middle of the pack offensive SS. Last year he was bad, other years he was towards the top. This year he is sitting 4th. Couple that with his defense, and he is a 2nd tier SS in MLB today. The game has changed from the steroid era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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