It must be said - Hawk Harrelson has to go

[Jake]

I don't need an announcer to cheer with me for the White Sox. I can do that myself. I just want to know what is going on in the game and why. Also, maybe I can learn a thing or two. Hawk does little of that.

 

I'm interested in this.

 

1. I don't think there's any way to determine whether the "right" thing is for the local announcer to be a homer. I do think that most fans prefer this, however.

 

2. While the broadcast team has to narrate some of the action just to fill the airtime, I really don't see why this is useful. You can SEE the game! I don't care how well they explain whether the pitch was a strike or a ball -- I can see the umpire and the pitch.

 

3. I'm also curious as to what we hope to learn. There are neat statistical things that we get independent of Hawk since he is just handed information like that. I just don't see anyone offering any real insight because I'm not sure what we hope to learn as people that follow baseball -- "you see when they hit it to the outfield they are supposed to hit a cut" ... it's a fairly simple game once you watch/play for a long time. I enjoy the vast experience of our broadcast team because they have seen a ton of players and events over time and thus can draw comparisons that I would not be able to.

 

When you think about it, there's not much flexibility in what a broadcaster can do and I think this is why many of them seem flat:

-say what's going on. Not going to captivate anyone that can see.

-repeat statistics passed to you by the stat crew. This can make you look good but has little to do with you.

-explain complicated plays that folks that are new to baseball won't understand.

 

Your wiggle room is in word choice, homerism, emotion, and a little bit of analysis.

 

 

Honestly, I've enjoyed doing radio myself quite a bit more since you are forced to fill the air with exposition. Not as much pressure to spice up the audio when there is no visual.

[Reddy]

I don't need an announcer to cheer with me for the White Sox. I can do that myself. I just want to know what is going on in the game and why. Also, maybe I can learn a thing or two. Hawk does little of that.

i'd say Hawk does a lot of that. it's just not sabermetric, and it's not about the 90's till today. but that's fine cuz that's when I've been following baseball anyway so I was there for it.

[caulfield12]

I do think that Harrelson represents the "old guard," and, to an extent, that's what has turned SOME young fans off from watching Sox games.

 

From watching my students not being able to understand or really care much about anything which happened before they were born...it's that short-term focus, the immediate now, that gets to me. From having taught history, it's annoying when many schools (especially here in Asia) are making it an elective or not even carrying it as a course.

 

So I get the fact that maybe baseball history and anecdotes from the past, that's not everyone's cup of tea. Some people love his obscure name droppings and comparisons (I am guilty of the same thing)...others, it drives them batty and they want a more "insightful" commentary about what's actually going on within the game.

 

They do want everything to be thrown at them in terms of roto world stats and more quantitative analysis. Which is kind of the opposite of Harrelson...the whole "Moneyball" thing all over again, except this time applied to broadcasting.

 

You really do need both, and I think Stone combines the insight with the storytelling the best. I listen to (rather than watch) a lot more games because the online tv feeds always suck here in China, and I listen to a ton of other teams' radio broadcasters, and to hear the Scully's and Eucker's (some people hate him too) of the world is a rare treat. Rooney's great, I grew up with him in high school and university when they had some abysmal teams and always enjoyed his calls. For every Cardinals fan who loved Jack Buck, there were as many detractors, but there were certain voices that just ARE baseball. Jon Miller, with the Giants, Ernie Harwell, Jerry Coleman with the Padres, the names go on and on. Dave Wills is pretty good, and I like him better than Rongey, but he's far from a "slam dunk/no brainer" type of replacement for Harrelson, overall, he's solid.

 

So I would put them Stone, Harrelson/Farmer (tie) and DJ in that order. And I guess DJ is better at radio than Singleton, but not by much. Singleton's also improved and adapted, resulting in his career taking off more on a national basis.

 

Put me in the camp that for the future of White Sox fandom, he does need to go relatively soon...but I'll really miss his emotional nature and rants, because he's not one of those smooth, professionally-polished cookie cutter broadcasting grads that we're supposedly pining for, that have put in years of training and minor league apprenticeship time of 10-15-20 years (Mario Impemba with the Tigers comes to mind, he started with my hometown Quad City River Bandits) because they never played in the big leagues and really had to earn their way to a promotion.

 

 

[Steve9347]

27? 28?

 

Right about the age where you think you've got the world all figured out...

This is such a thing old people say. I don't believe I have the world figured out - that's just weird. The only things I have figured out in life are my marriage and the fact that the government sucks.

[iamshack]

This is such a thing old people say. I don't believe I have the world figured out - that's just weird. The only things I have figured out in life are my marriage and the fact that the government sucks.

Again, you are like a walking contradiction.

 

You open the post with a blanket generalization and then go on to claim you really don't know much...but just enough to still be able to make that blanket generalization.

 

Maybe old people have been around the block long enough to observe a few things? The reason you often hear older people say things like this is is because it is true. Many people, as we age, go through the phase in life where we think we really have a good handle on things...much better than what our parents or other elders do...how could they have not realized all these things I have? It must be because they are stupid.

 

Then life happens, and as you get older and experience things, you realize how little you actually knew all along, and learn to respect what people with loads of experience have to say...

 

 

[Steve9347]

Again, you are like a walking contradiction.

 

You open the post with a blanket generalization and then go on to claim you really don't know much...but just enough to still be able to make that blanket generalization.

 

Maybe old people have been around the block long enough to observe a few things? The reason you often hear older people say things like this is is because it is true. Many people, as we age, go through the phase in life where we think we really have a good handle on things...much better than what our parents or other elders do...how could they have not realized all these things I have? It must be because they are stupid.

 

Then life happens, and as you get older and experience things, you realize how little you actually knew all along, and learn to respect what people with loads of experience have to say...

I was throwing it back at you, Chief. Your position is "young people don't know everything". My position is "old people don't know everything, and are also cranky."

 

Oh, and that Hawk Harrelson is horrendous at his job, and women deserve equal opportunity.

 

I'm such an asshole.

[StrangeSox]

You know what they say about opinions.

BigSqwert is an asshole?

[iamshack]

I was throwing it back at you, Chief. Your position is "young people don't know everything". My position is "old people don't know everything, and are also cranky."

 

Oh, and that Hawk Harrelson is horrendous at his job, and women deserve equal opportunity.

 

I'm such an asshole.

No, my position is that I respect Harrelson's 50 years in the game, and while I don't always like when he is whining about calls or talking about the '67 Red Sox, I have heard enough other pbp men to realize that the overall product we have is pretty solid.

 

I don't think that makes me a meatball fan. I think it makes me someone who has sampled the other dishes on the menu and realized the one I've been ordering stacks up pretty well. You, on the other hand, haven't even tried any other dishes on the menu other than that one you think you remember being really good a long time ago, but is no longer available.

 

No, I don't think you're an asshole.

[fathom]

Hawk's been way better this year than previous years, in my opinion. The only complaint I've had about him is that all of his stories has stuff to do about players from his era. If the hardcore baseball fans on this board don't know 75% of the stuff he's referring to, I can't imagine what the general Sox audience thinks about the stories. I loved when Hawk talked about how he won't listed to satellite radio and other games on his drive home if the Sox lose. That's just like many on this board who don't like to watch highlights of the game if the Sox lose, etc.

[RockRaines]

No, my position is that I respect Harrelson's 50 years in the game, and while I don't always like when he is whining about calls or talking about the '67 Red Sox, I have heard enough other pbp men to realize that the overall product we have is pretty solid.

I respect him as well, but his act is tired. If Rooney/Stoney could do the broadcast my ears would have orgasms.

[caulfield12]

Why does this remind me of the Moneyball scene with Jonah Hill/DePodesta facing off with Grady Fuson and the "old/crusty" scouts in the conference room, lol?

 

The "older generation" is made to look kind of buffoonish and out of touch, the younger generation is Mark Zuckerberg or Billy Beane or whoever is flying in the face of convention, wearing hoodies to "road shows" and symbolizing a rebellion against the old guard that used to be symbolized by IBM "suits" and is now represented for baseball purposes by Hawk Harrelson.

 

Then there are the "old school" guys like Scully or Harwell that EVERYBODY respected...that were maybe so "uncool" (like anything your parents or grandparents relished) that they've kind of become cool again to young people because they represent the way things used to be in the past and hearken back to better times and perhaps more pleasant memories for many adults.

 

Listening to those guys like Harrelson, it's the baseball version of reading the newest Stephen King novel "11/22/63," it really makes you wish you were alive then to see the way the game was played by the '59 White Sox or '67 Red Sox/White Sox. It hearkens back to a "purer" time in our country, the 50's and 60's, when many of the problems were still masked or hidden under the surface and world didn't feel quite so ugly. Of course, those who lived at that time might beg to differ.

 

 

[Steve9347]

You, on the other hand, haven't even tried any other dishes on the menu other than that one you think you remember being really good a long time ago, but is no longer available.

Go back to post #1 in this thread. HERE I WILL LINK YOU - READ PLEASE. I've had mlb.tv for two straight seasons. I have watch a LOT of out of town baseball. I have been sampling more dishes than any normal human should. I have sampled, thanks to an incredible feature that allows me to pick not on the TV broadcast, but also have the radio announcers, upwards of 8 gentlemen talk about the game during any given game.

 

It's fun, it's awesome. It was stated IN THE LEAD POST.

 

(I only bring up reading comprehension when it's relevant, bud.)

 

I even flipped to Len and Bob this weekend and enjoyed their broadcast better than Hawk. I was taken aback (seriously) when they spoke knowledgeably about White Sox players - because I so rarely get any information on the opposing teams hitters other than "I tell ya what, this [iNSERT PLAYER NAME] is really good."

 

Hawk is a hack. Hawk is the guy who insists the only person with comparable bat speed to Carlos Delgado is Dayan Viciedo - and that these two gentlemen have the quickest bats in the history of baseball.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Hawk's been way better this year than previous years, in my opinion. The only complaint I've had about him is that all of his stories has stuff to do about players from his era. If the hardcore baseball fans on this board don't know 75% of the stuff he's referring to, I can't imagine what the general Sox audience thinks about the stories. I loved when Hawk talked about how he won't listed to satellite radio and other games on his drive home if the Sox lose. That's just like many on this board who don't like to watch highlights of the game if the Sox lose, etc.

 

 

That's just it. He represents the best and worst of our human natures as a fan.

 

The polarity of it.

 

90% of the time when the Sox win, I'm combing through all the highlights, excited about trying to find any hope for our minor leaguers, reading all the articles at the Trib, Sun-Times, Daily Herald, etc.

 

When we win, it makes me want to listen to all the other games, especially CLE and DET games these days...to try to assess if we realistically can compete with them, to get a feeling for how their seasons are going and how they stack up against us and vice-versa.

 

Then, games like yesterday, I close mlb.com or read a book or watch a movie...anything to get away from baseball for awhile. You think about all the time you wasted in the off-day sort of looking forward to a performance that quickly causes you to tune out mentally after only about 20-30 minutes.

 

Maybe sometimes you even question why you spend so much time following the day-to-day ins and outs of a baseball season, instead of just tuning in at playoff time like most NBA and NHL fans typically do.

 

There's something almost twisted and yet glorious at the same time about dedicating so many days and months (not even including spring training and post-season and Winter Meetings/trade talk) to a game or sport, and yet, to live without Harrelson or the White Sox would feel very strange indeed.

 

 

[Steve9347]

Why does this remind me of the Moneyball scene with Jonah Hill/DePodesta facing off with Grady Fuson and the "old/crusty" scouts in the conference room, lol?

 

The "older generation" is made to look kind of buffoonish and out of touch, the younger generation is Mark Zuckerberg or Billy Beane or whoever is flying in the face of convention, wearing hoodies to "road shows" and symbolizing a rebellion against the old guard that used to be symbolized by IBM "suits" and is now represented for baseball purposes by Hawk Harrelson.

 

Then there are the "old school" guys like Scully or Harwell that EVERYBODY respected...that were maybe so "uncool" (like anything your parents or grandparents relished) that they've kind of become cool again to young people because they represent the way things used to be in the past and hearken back to better times and perhaps more pleasant memories for many adults.

 

Listening to those guys like Harrelson, it's the baseball version of reading the newest Stephen King novel "11/22/63," it really makes you wish you were alive then to see the way the game was played by the '59 White Sox or '67 Red Sox/White Sox. It hearkens back to a "purer" time in our country, the 50's and 60's, when many of the problems were still masked or hidden under the surface and world didn't feel quite so ugly. Of course, those who lived at that time might beg to differ.

You truly think on a level other than mine. Cool post - gave no opinion, but fun to read.

[iamshack]

Go back to post #1 in this thread. HERE I WILL LINK YOU - READ PLEASE. I've had mlb.tv for two straight seasons. I have watch a LOT of out of town baseball. I have been sampling more dishes than any normal human should. I have sampled, thanks to an incredible feature that allows me to pick not on the TV broadcast, but also have the radio announcers, upwards of 8 gentlemen talk about the game during any given game.

 

It's fun, it's awesome. It was stated IN THE LEAD POST.

 

(I only bring up reading comprehension when it's relevant, bud.)

 

I even flipped to Len and Bob this weekend and enjoyed their broadcast better than Hawk. I was taken aback (seriously) when they spoke knowledgeably about White Sox players - because I so rarely get any information on the opposing teams hitters other than "I tell ya what, this [iNSERT PLAYER NAME] is really good."

 

Hawk is a hack. Hawk is the guy who insists the only person with comparable bat speed to Carlos Delgado is Dayan Viciedo - and that these two gentlemen have the quickest bats in the history of baseball.

My bad...that was hundreds of posts ago and I forgot...

 

I guess I was more going off the fact that your recommendation was someone from the score, and not all those other broadcasts you've been watching.

 

Vasgersian was ruined for me by The Show, but otherwise, he isn't too bad...kind of like a robot for my taste.

[caulfield12]

Go back to post #1 in this thread. HERE I WILL LINK YOU - READ PLEASE. I've had mlb.tv for two straight seasons. I have watch a LOT of out of town baseball. I have been sampling more dishes than any normal human should. I have sampled, thanks to an incredible feature that allows me to pick not on the TV broadcast, but also have the radio announcers, upwards of 8 gentlemen talk about the game during any given game.

 

It's fun, it's awesome. It was stated IN THE LEAD POST.

 

(I only bring up reading comprehension when it's relevant, bud.)

 

I even flipped to Len and Bob this weekend and enjoyed their broadcast better than Hawk. I was taken aback (seriously) when they spoke knowledgeably about White Sox players - because I so rarely get any information on the opposing teams hitters other than "I tell ya what, this [iNSERT PLAYER NAME] is really good."

 

Hawk is a hack. Hawk is the guy who insists the only person with comparable bat speed to Carlos Delgado is Dayan Viciedo - and that these two gentlemen have the quickest bats in the history of baseball.

 

Gary Sheffield says "hi!"

 

And that's the funny thing, that everyone talks about Viciedo's bat speed, and yet we all have such radically different perceptions.

 

When he misses high fastballs, Dayan seems like he has a "slider speed" bat, like Frank Thomas in days of yore, especially the 2nd half of his career. When he gets that massive and violent swing through its entire arc and he makes contact, the ball just jumps off his bat and you're like "whoa! where did that come from?"

 

Harrelson has this way of focusing on one good thing about each of our players (Konerko's ability to field/scoop balls in the dirt and overall soft hands) and then he tunes out all of their negatives.

 

Juan Pierre is the hardest working player on the team, he arrives at the park first and leaves last...everyone loves him...he very rarely makes fundamental mistakes (this is when he played with the Marlins, Dodgers and Rockies), etc. Or he'll remind us about how these players USED to play, like the Roberto Alomars and Ken Griffey, Jr's, when what we're seeing on the field is just a shade of their former selves, Omar Vizquel, same thing. He just has that mental block about anything negative that goes against what he wants to see.

 

He does it with Gordon Beckham all the time...because he's so clearly rooting for him, moreso than the other players.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

All righty I think the back and forth has gone on plenty long enough. Back to the Legend that is the The Hawk.

[Steve9347]

My bad...that was hundreds of posts ago and I forgot...

 

I guess I was more going off the fact that your recommendation was someone from the score, and not all those other broadcasts you've been watching.

 

Vasgersian was ruined for me by The Show, but otherwise, he isn't too bad...kind of like a robot for my taste.

Law Holmes post was a joke. Every now and then I make the mistake of turned on 670 on a random Saturday and he's doing a Depaul game, I believe. That wasn't serious. I want a professional.

 

I actually like Vasgersian MORE because of The Show. Funny.

[SI1020]

I support this post 100%. Hawk needs to go. I spent Friday & Sunday listening to Len & Bob, cause anything is better than Hawk.

If you think Len Kasper is good then I feel very sorry for you. I'd rather listen to a trained parrot. Just be patient. Eventually all life and personality will be driven out of sports broadcasting, everyone will have the appropriate amount of "eye candy" and people will think that it's progress.

[Steve9347]

If you think Len Kasper is good then I feel very sorry for you. I'd rather listen to a trained parrot. Just be patient. Eventually all life and personality will be driven out of sports broadcasting, everyone will have the appropriate amount of "eye candy" and people will think that it's progress.

In the quote you posted, he clearly said he was better because "anything is better than Hawk". He didn't say "I heart Len Kasper!"

[Jake]

Len and Bob are SO bad. Talk about saying nothing for a whole broadcast. The only time I ever notice them saying anything is when they say something way off base. I wonder if Len Kasper had ever been to a baseball game before he started broadcasting.

[chw42]

Law Holmes post was a joke. Every now and then I make the mistake of turned on 670 on a random Saturday and he's doing a Depaul game, I believe. That wasn't serious. I want a professional.

I actually like Vasgersian MORE because of The Show. Funny.

 

Then you want Zack Zaidman.

[SI1020]

Dave Wills

I like him too. Better than his partner. Too bad he left town.

 

[chw42]

Len and Bob are SO bad. Talk about saying nothing for a whole broadcast. The only time I ever notice them saying anything is when they say something way off base. I wonder if Len Kasper had ever been to a baseball game before he started broadcasting.

 

I got nothing against Brenly for the most part, but Len Kasper sucks.

[chw42]

I like him too. Better than his partner. Too bad he left town.

 

Dave Wills should have done radio here. He left like 2 years before Rooney went to St. Louis. It's a shame, because he's doing a great job down in Tampa.