Reed, Jones, Quintana...etc

[farmteam]

Typically "Soxtalky" smarmy quote. Not that everyone is supposed to be farting rainbows and crapping moon pies, but what's the point of putting this into THIS discussion?

 

I almost never post in PHT, but sure why not.

 

The point of putting this into THIS discussion was to signal that maybe if that's the best you can say for why the farm system isn't barren, then maybe it actually IS barren. To not point that out would be, as you say, "farting rainbows."

 

Now, I agree with SS2k5 that Sale is a great product of the system, and I've never been as down on our system as some people have, because it's been consistently good at pumping out role players like this. But the problem is when you're ONLY pumping at role players. Sale looks to be bucking that trend, but he wasn't mentioned in the original post.

 

EDIT: I guess you could say the OP intended to include Sale among the "young pitching" comment, but my first post was referring only to the three mentioned in the title.

Edited May 26, 2012 by farmteam

[caulfield12]

Leading back to the, WHAT IF DeAza and Viciedo played last year when they were most needed, or even Lillibridge?

 

Ranger Rongey would argue that Dunn and Rios would have been ruined "forever"...or the team's chemistry/morale adversely affected by a Juan Pierre benching.

 

Really hard to argue we "should" have won the division, as opposed to the 2010 decision about the the multi-pronged DH (Jones/Kotsay) versus Thome. But it certainly would have been a lot more interesting.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I almost never post in PHT, but sure why not.

 

The point of putting this into THIS discussion was to signal that maybe if that's the best you can say for why the farm system isn't barren, then maybe it actually IS barren. To not point that out would be, as you say, "farting rainbows."

 

Now, I agree with SS2k5 that Sale is a great product of the system, and I've never been as down on our system as some people have, because it's been consistently good at pumping out role players like this. But the problem is when you're ONLY pumping at role players. Sale looks to be bucking that trend, but he wasn't mentioned in the original post.

 

EDIT: I guess you could say the OP intended to include Sale among the "young pitching" comment, but my first post was referring only to the three mentioned in the title.

 

The reverse way of looking that is we produced two strong closer candidates in Santiago and Nathan Jones that weren't on many Top 10 prospects lists for the Sox.

 

Of course, you're talking relievers versus impact/All-Star level position players, but you can make the argument that their development (along with Reed) has paved the way for us to be able to deal Thornton, Crain and Floyd (the other young pitching prospects).

 

If you take that money out of the payroll, you can legitimately make an argument for rolling the dice on the season by acquiring a David Wright type of impact bat.

 

Not that I'm quite ready to advocate that, simply because we've seen how much difficulty NL players have had in their first couple of months (or even season) in the AL.

 

 

[iamshack]

Look, the overall goal is to produce the most possible talent with the resource pool that you have. I could care less if we draft them, if we steal them all from Cuba, if we abduct them from North Korea, if we trade for them, if we claim them on waivers...I could give a rat's ass.

 

We have clearly not had any huge hits with out high draft choices within the last several years. Sale, Hudson, Gio probably being our best selections.

 

However, we have had some major finds in other areas, such as the waiver wire, the Cuban signees, some trades, etc.

 

So technically, by the strictest definition of things, yes, maybe our "farm" system sucks. However, we consistently find ways to produce quality players, and the evidence of that is out there, whether on our ballclub or elsewhere.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Look, the overall goal is to produce the most possible talent with the resource pool that you have. I could care less if we draft them, if we steal them all from Cuba, if we abduct them from North Korea, if we trade for them, if we claim them on waivers...I could give a rat's ass.

 

We have clearly not had any huge hits with out high draft choices within the last several years. Sale, Hudson, Gio probably being our best selections.

 

However, we have had some major finds in other areas, such as the waiver wire, the Cuban signees, some trades, etc.

 

So technically, by the strictest definition of things, yes, maybe our "farm" system sucks. However, we consistently find ways to produce quality players, and the evidence of that is out there, whether on our ballclub or elsewhere.

 

 

Except for Chris Sale, and the possibility Gordon Beckham is going to turn it back around and be our regular 2B the next 3 years and put up a consistent 700-725 OPS.

 

Then those drafts look better, along with Mitchell coming along nicely in BIRM and likely to put up even better stats in Charlotte.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Leading back to the, WHAT IF DeAza and Viciedo played last year when they were most needed, or even Lillibridge?

 

Ranger Rongey would argue that Dunn and Rios would have been ruined "forever"...or the team's chemistry/morale adversely affected by a Juan Pierre benching.

 

Really hard to argue we "should" have won the division, as opposed to the 2010 decision about the the multi-pronged DH (Jones/Kotsay) versus Thome. But it certainly would have been a lot more interesting.

Viciedo genuinely wasn't ready last year. He would have been better than Pierre, Rios, or Dunn, but that's because those guys were so terrible. He'd have struggled more than we saw in April, especially since he had that hand injury bothering him the whole year (especially late in the season).

 

I think De Aza would have been a serious upgrade last year if Pierre had gone to the bench early when he deserved to, or Rios went to the bench by midseason when he deserved to.

[caulfield12]

Viciedo genuinely wasn't ready last year. He would have been better than Pierre, Rios, or Dunn, but that's because those guys were so terrible. He'd have struggled more than we saw in April, especially since he had that hand injury bothering him the whole year (especially late in the season).

 

I think De Aza would have been a serious upgrade last year if Pierre had gone to the bench early when he deserved to, or Rios went to the bench by midseason when he deserved to.

 

 

I was referring more to that time in May/early June when Viciedo was the hottest hitter in AAA, before he hurt himself.

 

Not sure how we could say he wasn't ready last year when he already showed up in late 2010 and looked like he really belonged for most of his time on the roster...until fading late. Of course, the counter-argument is that Ozzie protected him more and he saw a lot of LHP and was skipped against some of the toughest RHP.

[Jake]

I think Gordon Beckham is just immensely important as it pertains to evaluating our organization's ability to produce young players. If he turns out to actually be a good major leaguer, everything changes. He's running out of time to show us what he can do.

 

I think he might be turning it around, though....he looks great, that BABIP is shockingly low....I think big things are coming.

[Balta1701]

I was referring more to that time in May/early June when Viciedo was the hottest hitter in AAA, before he hurt himself.

 

Not sure how we could say he wasn't ready last year when he already showed up in late 2010 and looked like he really belonged for most of his time on the roster...until fading late. Of course, the counter-argument is that Ozzie protected him more and he saw a lot of LHP and was skipped against some of the toughest RHP.

Be careful though...Viciedo actually hurt himself in spring training. He played through it the whole year. He was effective playing through it, but it effected him the whole year, and it really came back late in the year and really started impacting his swing there.

 

In 2010 he didn't look like he belonged on the MLB roster. He looked like a kid with a ton of power potential but very little control over the strike zone. He hit some early HR (I was in the crowd for his first MLB homer), but then people figured out he couldn't lay off pitches up and he couldn't get on top of them, so he became an easy K. On top of that, he was in the middle of the insane defensive movement the Sox put him through, so he had no position where he was even close to tolerable.

[caulfield12]

Be careful though...Viciedo actually hurt himself in spring training. He played through it the whole year. He was effective playing through it, but it effected him the whole year, and it really came back late in the year and really started impacting his swing there.

 

In 2010 he didn't look like he belonged on the MLB roster. He looked like a kid with a ton of power potential but very little control over the strike zone. He hit some early HR (I was in the crowd for his first MLB homer), but then people figured out he couldn't lay off pitches up and he couldn't get on top of them, so he became an easy K. On top of that, he was in the middle of the insane defensive movement the Sox put him through, so he had no position where he was even close to tolerable.

 

 

It's pretty hard to argue an 840 OPS (with our offensive woes for most of the last 3+ seasons) wasn't SOMEWHAT ready, but you bring up some good points.

 

Interestingly, Dayan's career OPS now is exactly at 741, which is still above the average at LF by 14 points.

 

Out of a 23 year old with tons of potential to keep improving, it should at least bury the trade thread for the remainder of the season.