Something has to be done to improve the rotation

[Knackattack]

Viciedo >>>>> Rental SP

[Marty34]

I'm all for making moves this year to improve, but under no circumstance do you cripple your future to do so. Trading Viciedo would be exactly that kind of move. Honestly, I think starting pitching is going to be too expensive for our blood. I'd rather consider giving Quintana an extended look or call up Axelrod and then move Humber to bullpen. I think Danks will be more than fine as our #3 the rest of the way and Floyd will most likely turn around at some point. If so, we only need a 5th starter that doesn't completely throw away games IMO.

 

I still think a move Youkilis makes the most sense, but obviously the price would have to right and Gavin would be a terrible overpay.

 

The Sox future isn't all that much more sketchy without Viciedo than it is with. If you can get a Grienke for something other than Viciedo, do it, but if it takes him so be it provided they can replace his production this year (Youk.) Get to the postseason this year because Sale's elbow might just be start-to-start much less year-to-year.

[Marty34]

Then, we DEFINITELY would be looking at 4-5 years of rebuilding, and there's zero guarantee we'd get anywhere because we don't have a replacement for Viciedo's bat, nor do we have a solution for when we have to shut Sale down later in the season.

 

Then next year, you can turn around and say KW was "all in" and failed again, therefore he has to go, etc.

 

With or without Viciedo there's a decent chance at a long rebuilding ahead.

[chw42]

Serious questions:

 

1. Name a team and their 3b who would want floyd. Are you talking Youkilis? I'll admit, I'm starting to warm more to that idea, but still don't like it much.

 

2. How many more bad starts will it be before teams decide that Floyd is busting and might not be a good acquisition?

 

You simply don't give up on Floyd. Remember when Gavin had like a 7 ERA back in 09 in June? He pitches in spurts, a good streak will come soon enough once something clicks in his head.

Edited June 12, 2012 by chw42

[Dick Allen]

You simply don't give up on Floyd. Remember when Gavin had like a 7 ERA back in 09 in June? He pitches in spurts, a good streak will come soon enough once something clicks in his head.

Danks will be back soon. We are coming to the place on the calendar where Floyd shines. His curveball was tight last outing, maybe a good sign. Hope Quintana can hold up the fort pitching in Humber's spot as I think Phillip is a lost cause. Floyd usually has 2 excellent months.,June and July. If he holds true to form, around the deadline would be an excellent time to trade him as he will be entering a period where he almost always fades. He will be coming off a dominating stretch and might be attractive to a team like Milwuakee if Greinke isn't going to sign with them. 2012 pitching problem solved. If the Sox make the playoffs, you just lost Floyd's salary, Peavy departing, some extra playoff cash and ticket sales gives you an opportunity to sign Greinke. 2013 pitching problem solved. No matter what Marty says, a rotation that includes Danks, Greinke and Sale and the back end of the Sox bullpen, should be able to compete for the foreseeable future in the AL Central. A lot would have to go right for that all to happen, but most has been going the Sox way so far this year.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The problem is there's just not enough to get both Greinke and Youkilis.

 

We've gone through this before with the Jackson/Hudson trade. Or wasting money on Manny Ramirez.

 

The only and perhaps main reason to do it is because this team is more set up to win it than in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

 

But with Danks on the books, it's going to take a lot more than just making the playoffs for JR to ante up for Greinke when he's just now getting free of the Peavy deal.

 

On the open market, you just don't see much likelihood of keeping him. And then why Milwaukee would want Gavin Floyd for $9.5 million in 2013, is beyond me. He better go on a phenomenal run the next 6 weeks, in which case it becomes very hard to deal him, even though your heart tells you the worm will turn for the worse again and he'll revert back to "bad Gavin."

 

Thankfully, we still have a month or more to monitor things before we make any moves.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

The problem is there's just not enough to get both Greinke and Youkilis.

 

We've gone through this before with the Jackson/Hudson trade. Or wasting money on Manny Ramirez.

 

The only and perhaps main reason to do it is because this team is more set up to win it than in 2013, 2014 and 2015.

 

But with Danks on the books, it's going to take a lot more than just making the playoffs for JR to ante up for Greinke when he's just now getting free of the Peavy deal.

 

On the open market, you just don't see much likelihood of keeping him. And then why Milwaukee would want Gavin Floyd for $9.5 million in 2013, is beyond me. He better go on a phenomenal run the next 6 weeks, in which case it becomes very hard to deal him, even though your heart tells you the worm will turn for the worse again and he'll revert back to "bad Gavin."

 

Thankfully, we still have a month or more to monitor things before we make any moves.

The Red Sox are not going to trade Youkilis to the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

And therein lies the problem.

 

Even if you sell out the farm (let's say Mitchell, Nathan Jones and Trayce Thompson) for 2-3-4 months of Zach Greinke, there's nothing close to a guarantee we'll be able to make the playoffs this year because Sale will start pushing that 160 IP mark at the beginning of August.

 

If you knew Sale could last through the remainder of this season at his present level, as well as Peavy, then you'd probably say "Go for it!" but there's a pretty big downside risk to swinging and missing.

 

I get it, it's KW's modus operandi to swing for the fences and go for the big names, but how many times can we keep going through this "boom or bust" cycle?

 

Meanwhile, we'll have the possibility of the Tigers making a couple more big moves and blowing past everyone like they did last season. Even if the odds of that are only 50/50, due to their defensive holes all around the diamond.

[sunofgold]

Maybe the solution will have to be in-house. Give Axelrod some starts. The rotation should be changed with Floyd or Humber at least being taken out of the rotation for now.

[Heads22]

With or without Viciedo there's a decent chance at a long rebuilding ahead.

 

Of course, we thought we'd kind of suck this year as well.

 

I agree with Jason on this. I really don't want us to be shortsighted with any deal. While I certainly wouldn't mind the idea of Youkilis at third, it's certainly not a move that we have to make and we need to treat it as such.

[iamshack]

The Sox future isn't all that much more sketchy without Viciedo than it is with. If you can get a Grienke for something other than Viciedo, do it, but if it takes him so be it provided they can replace his production this year (Youk.) Get to the postseason this year because Sale's elbow might just be start-to-start much less year-to-year.

I'd only trade Viciedo in a deal where the guy I got back was going to be under team control for awhile (if that means resigning the player, fine), but I'm not dealing him for someone that will be here for 3 months.

 

Otherwise, I don't quite get why folks see such a long rebuilding process (if any at all).

 

I get the lack of quality position player prospects.

 

I also see us continually find ways to make it work and stay competitive. I don't know how anyone can say with any certainty that there is a lengthy rebuilding ahead in the face of what we are watching right now.

 

If we can shore up this rotation and put something worth a s*** at 3b, this team is every bit as balanced and talented as we've seen here.

[Quin]

It's simple.

 

We trade for Buehrle.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Serious Question. (no ones answered me yet)

 

Why aren't people talking about Terry Doyle??

 

Yes, any team could have had him I know that. Minnesota took a chance at that and he had a bad Spring...So what. I know its the Twins but they were taking a chance on carrying a pitcher who never pitched above AA the whole year, they must have seen something in him.

 

Terry Doyle right now ranks...

 

2nd in wins...7th in ERA...6th in IP...3rd in SO...2nd in Whip

 

...in the International League

 

What more do you want from a guy who has been good at every level he's been to??

 

Axelrods up there in the rankings too.

 

 

---

 

As far as the Headley trade goes.. I forgot the Pads got Grandal in that Latos deal too, so they wouldn't want Tflow.

 

 

 

 

[knightni]

Doyle is a 26+ year old AAAA player.

 

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

Doyle is a 26+ year old AAAA player.

 

Why though? Do explain...

[caulfield12]

I'd only trade Viciedo in a deal where the guy I got back was going to be under team control for awhile (if that means resigning the player, fine), but I'm not dealing him for someone that will be here for 3 months.

 

Otherwise, I don't quite get why folks see such a long rebuilding process (if any at all).

 

I get the lack of quality position player prospects.

 

I also see us continually find ways to make it work and stay competitive. I don't know how anyone can say with any certainty that there is a lengthy rebuilding ahead in the face of what we are watching right now.

 

If we can shore up this rotation and put something worth a s*** at 3b, this team is every bit as balanced and talented as we've seen here.

 

 

 

Lose Peavy.

Sale doesn't or can't stay healthy.

Probably lose Floyd.

 

That leaves John Danks, who's paid like a #2 starter but hasn't performed at that level this year (due to injury, perhaps) or really on a (half-season or longer) consistent basis since 2008.

 

That's the worst-case scenario.

 

Of course, nobody knows how long Sale will last. But, even if he is the next Randy Johnson, we have to replace one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball in Jake Peavy...and that's VERY unlikely to come from our own system.

 

Can we find another Humber in Mr. Quintana? Perhaps, perhaps not, early signs are encouraging. But it's hard to see the team biting on Gavin Floyd's 2013 option at $9.5 million at this exact moment in time. Hopefully that will change or he can be traded for a younger version of Gavin, but that's IFFY at best.

Edited June 12, 2012 by caulfield12

[nickofypres]

We may have more problems soon enough, Jake Peavy has an xFIP of 4.03 and a BABIP of around .240.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2012 by whitesox901

[Balta1701]

Why though? Do explain...

He was given a chance to make the team with the Twins in Spring training or be lost back to the White Sox, and he couldn't even make the Twins bullpen. He put up an ERA of 16+ in his few A game appearances.

 

I won't be mad if he gets a chance to perform with the Sox this year, and I'll be thrilled if he comes out and has success, but understand, guys like this are a dime a dozen. We have 2 or 3 of them every year, guys who are now old for AAA but put up decent numbers for that league. Occasionally they turn into a useful bullpen piece or even a starter. But in terms of trade value...they're not worth anything until they seriously prove something at the big league level. You can find the equivalent of a Doyle on the waiver wire at least a dozen times during the year.

 

If you want him to have legit trade value, then you need to put him at the big league level and give him 10-20 starts to see if his AAA performance is anything real. Of course, if it isn't, then you're costing yourself a shot at the division.

[iamshack]

Lose Peavy.

Sale doesn't or can't stay healthy.

Probably lose Floyd.

 

That leaves John Danks, who's paid like a #2 starter but hasn't performed at that level this year (due to injury, perhaps) or really on a (half-season or longer) consistent basis since 2008.

 

That's the worst-case scenario.

 

Of course, nobody knows how long Sale will last. But, even if he is the next Randy Johnson, we have to replace one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball in Jake Peavy...and that's VERY unlikely to come from our own system.

 

Can we find another Humber in Mr. Quintana? Perhaps, perhaps not, early signs are encouraging. But it's hard to see the team biting on Gavin Floyd's 2013 option at $9.5 million at this exact moment in time. Hopefully that will change or he can be traded for a younger version of Gavin, but that's IFFY at best.

Well if you want to take 3 SPs away from some of the other teams, I'll bet they'd be s*** out of luck too. Let's take Justin Verlander/Max Scherzer/Doug Fister away from the Tigers and see how good they are...

 

I don't get this line of reasoning.

[caulfield12]

Well if you want to take 3 SPs away from some of the other teams, I'll bet they'd be s*** out of luck too. Let's take Justin Verlander/Max Scherzer/Doug Fister away from the Tigers and see how good they are...

 

I don't get this line of reasoning.

 

 

Not this year, referring to why they clearly would be in rebuilding mode beginning in 2013, barring some more miracles.

[iamshack]

Not this year, referring to why they clearly would be in rebuilding mode beginning in 2013, barring some more miracles.

Yeah, I understood what you were saying...and I'm sure if they bought out Peavy's contract, traded Floyd, and Sale was out for the year because of elbow problems, that we would just promote 3 SPs from Birmingham that are horrendous and pocket the 30 million we saved by not paying Jake or Gavin.

[Balta1701]

Not this year, referring to why they clearly would be in rebuilding mode beginning in 2013, barring some more miracles.

If you've got a healthy Chris Sale at the top of the rotation doing this, and John Danks can pitch like a #2 starter, then really, a solid rotation isn't that hard to put together. Filling the #3-#5 spots in a rotation isn't extremely complicated these days, no matter how much we remember the 2004 5th starter mess. We might well have 4-5 different "5th starter" options right now sitting in Charlotte or the bullpen, with a little development work (Doyle, Axelrod, Castro, maybe Stewart, Santiago, hopefully Molina can pull things together in a year or two).

 

If you have Justin Verlander at the top of your rotation, you've found the piece that's hard to find.

[iamshack]

What if the team's charter went down over Lawrence, Kansas?

 

We'd have to have a COMPLETE rebuild!

[caulfield12]

What if the team's charter went down over Lawrence, Kansas?

 

We'd have to have a COMPLETE rebuild!

 

 

Close.

 

That's what happened to Knute Rockne, except it was the Flint Hills, further to the south.

[iamshack]

Close.

 

That's what happened to Knute Rockne, except it was the Flint Hills, further to the south.

And the Uruguayan rugby team in the Andes...they had to do a complete rebuild after they ate one another.

 

Edit: This is in terribly poor taste, but I think the team would understand it is necessary to make the point to Caulfield.

Edited June 12, 2012 by iamshack