GT: Chicago White Sox @ LA Dodgers

[iamshack]

We're all literally playing the guessing game right now, which is a silly game to play when we're talking about using a pitcher in a game who had a 2.7 FIP coming into today.

 

I'll say it again, we're not dealing with broken down Bobby Jenks. We're dealing with one of the best young bullpen arms in all of baseball.

We'll have to agree to disagree...I don't care who you are bringing in. I just don't.

 

This is what happens when you try to get too cute. It comes back to bite you in the ass. You're about to score with a hot chick, but you decide you want to nail her friend too...then you end up pissing them both off and now you're not nailing anyone.

[caulfield12]

We'll have to agree to disagree...I don't care who you are bringing in. I just don't.

 

This is what happens when you try to get too cute. It comes back to bite you in the ass. You're about to score with a hot chick, but you decide you want to nail her friend too...then you end up pissing them both off and now you're not nailing anyone.

 

 

Unless you have mid to late 90's Mariano Rivera, you leave Quintana in there at least until one batter reaches.

 

 

[CyAcosta41]

So much angst about 1/162, gentlemen.

 

I hated watching today's game (starting with the inexcusable "too Sunday, Sunday line-up"), squirming the whole time because every freaking sign pointed towards a painful loss. But we're Sox fans and dissect every decision and move made in a White Sox game and I think many of us fail to recognize that the nature of baseball is such that every manager makes decisions that he'd possibly change in hindsight (if only because of result).

 

Like many on the board I'm sure, I played baseball at a high enough level (Div. 1 college for me), and have been a fanatic of the game for so long, that I'm sure I'm equipped to manage a big league team, notwithstanding that it would never work for a nanosecond since I don't have the professional bona fides to get one ounce of respect from MLB players!

 

If it were me, I'd have left Quintana out there to start the 9th. It wasn't so much that he threw just 77 pitches, it was that his entire outing was nearly stress free, he had a remarkable rhythm going all game, the 8th inning might have been his easiest of the game, and the Dodgers had nothing scary to trot up against him in the 9th, particularly because their best available player, Abreu, was unlikely to hit as long as Quintana was in the game. To me, managing is an art as much as a science, and feel is part of the art. I'd have looked the young lefty in the eye, told him he's in until he gives up one base runner, and take my chances.

 

All that said, I can't blame Robin at all. For everything I said, Robin's "feel" seems to be that he got a great game out of the youngster, and that he wanted to show a "possible" lights-out closer of the future that he has full confidence in him. I think my way had the possibility of instilling a lot of confidence in Quintana, while preserving the ability to still get Reed out there, but I can't say Robin is wrong, just different.

 

The beauty of baseball, but sometimes the pain too, is that there is often no one right way, and even a good decision can still have bad consequences. Trotting out Reed wasn't horrible -- many of us would have done differently, many others (including lots of great baseball managers) would have done exactly what Robin did. And getting past Robin's decision, the 9th inning doesn't have me wondering whether Addison Reed can do the job. Dude was not going to be perfect this year. Abreu's hit was a veteran hitter fighting off a tough pitch with a good bit of hitting; the hit and run single was a total seeing eye grounder. Reed is good, very good, but every closer not named Mariano Rivera gets beat sometimes. That's baseball.

 

If the Sox are angsty too, hope they take it out by absolutely destroying the AAAA team playing on the North Side.

 

EDIT -- Just saw Caulfield's post above ... mentioning one batter for Q ... and Mo. Don't post often; this is one reason why! So many posters say exactly what I feel like saying, but I'd rather read than write!

Edited June 18, 2012 by CyAcosta41

[Rowand44]

Me being pissed about the decision has nothing to do with addy. I don't care if it's Mariano Rivera in his prime, Q was absolutely cruising and clearly had plenty left in the tank. I haven't had too much of a problem with anything Robin has done but that was a bad decision, period.

[greg775]

So much angst about 1/162, gentlemen.

 

I hated watching today's game (starting with the inexcusable "too Sunday, Sunday line-up"), squirming the whole time because every freaking sign pointed towards a painful loss. But we're Sox fans and dissect every decision and move made in a White Sox game and I think many of us fail to recognize that the nature of baseball is such that every manager makes decisions that he'd possibly change in hindsight (if only because of result).

 

Like many on the board I'm sure, I played baseball at a high enough level (Div. 1 college for me), and have been a fanatic of the game for so long, that I'm sure I'm equipped to manage a big league team, notwithstanding that it would never work for a nanosecond since I don't have the professional bona fides to get one ounce of respect from MLB players!

 

If it were me, I'd have left Quintana out there to start the 9th. It wasn't so much that he threw just 77 pitches, it was that his entire outing was nearly stress free, he had a remarkable rhythm going all game, the 8th inning might have been his easiest of the game, and the Dodgers had nothing scary to trot up against him in the 9th, particularly because their best available player, Abreu, was unlikely to hit as long as Quintana was in the game. To me, managing is an art as much as a science, and feel is part of the art. I'd have looked the young lefty in the eye, told him he's in until he gives up one base runner, and take my chances.

 

All that said, I can't blame Robin at all. For everything I said, Robin's "feel" seems to be that he got a great game out of the youngster, and that he wanted to show a "possible" lights-out closer of the future that he has full confidence in him. I think my way had the possibility of instilling a lot of confidence in Quintana, while preserving the ability to still get Reed out there, but I can't say Robin is wrong, just different.

 

The beauty of baseball, but sometimes the pain too, is that there is often no one right way, and even a good decision can still have bad consequences. Trotting out Reed wasn't horrible -- many of us would have done differently, many others (including lots of great baseball managers) would have done exactly what Robin did. And getting past Robin's decision, the 9th inning doesn't have me wondering whether Addison Reed can do the job. Dude was not going to be perfect this year. Abreu's hit was a veteran hitter fighting off a tough pitch with a good bit of hitting; the hit and run single was a total seeing eye grounder. Reed is good, very good, but every closer not named Mariano Rivera gets beat sometimes. That's baseball.

 

If the Sox are angsty too, hope they take it out by absolutely destroying the AAAA team playing on the North Side.

 

EDIT -- Just saw Caulfield's post above ... mentioning one batter for Q ... and Mo. Don't post often; this is one reason why! So many posters say exactly what I feel like saying, but I'd rather read than write!

 

Nice post.

I do hate your first sentence though. One of 162.

Yeah but we've been talking that way for years now. It's just one game.

And one series.

And it all, always adds up to the ceiling of this team and most of our recent teams ...

.500(ish)

[thxfrthmmrs]

Just saw the replay of the appeal, and interestingly, part of the reason Q was able to keep his pitch total down was the bizarre triple play in the 6th inning, where he got three outs with one pitch. Herrera was out on the Sac Fly, Treanor was out on leaving base early, and I believe Gordon was out for leaving the base amongst the confusion (?). That's gotta be the first of its kind.

[CyAcosta41]

Nice post.

I do hate your first sentence though. One of 162.

Yeah but we've been talking that way for years now. It's just one game.

And one series.

And it all, always adds up to the ceiling of this team and most of our recent teams ...

.500(ish)

 

Thanks, but you misunderstand my 1/162 reference. I'm no Hawk groupie, but it's just like how Hawk (endlessly) refers to "you'll win 60, you'll lose 60, but how you do depends on what happens with the other 42." So many 1:1 battles in baseball, so many decisions that not only impact what happens later in the game, but what happens later in the week, month, and season, that we can all spend a lifetime second, third, and infinity guessing everything if we're so inclined. That's the nature of baseball. EVERY team deals with countless moments just like this (NOT just the White Sox -- most of us just follow the White Sox though). EVERY manager makes decisions that turn-out differently than how he hoped they would (NOT just Robin Ventura -- the same happened with Connie Mack, John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Ozzie Guillen, or insert the name of your favorite manager here). I know 1/162 is important since they all add up, but the entire 162, the entire body-of-a-season's-work is more important.

 

And for the record (since this post stays in the permanent record that is the internet), nobody hated Robin's decision to take out Quintana more than I did. He was breezing, dealing, and totally on auto-pilot. I'm with what I'd imagine to be a majority of people and let Q start the inning, having Reed ready if any trouble arises in the pivotal 9th. However, no way is that the "right way" or the "only way." Plenty of baseball managers and experts (real or in the reality of their own mind) would have done just what Robin did -- graciously accept Q's yeoman work and turn the 9th over to a guy who had been perfect for the year and who has a "chance" to be a long-term stud closer. I wouldn't have done that, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that many baseball lifer's wouldn't have done exactly what baseball lifer Robin Ventura in fact did do.

 

Love talking Sox, but I'm choosing to be angsty about things I think are bigger problems -- like why intentionally handicap yourself to THAT extent by such an extreme Sunday lineup that had so little chance to score more than a run or two, losing momentum from a nice Saturday night win, and ensuring a downer of a long flight home. To this point in the year, I had been happy that Robin was staying away from getting the scrubs in all at the same time (something I thought was one of Ozzie's biggest flaws as a tactical manager). Hopefully today's mess of a game might become a memorable lesson!

Edited June 18, 2012 by CyAcosta41

[caulfield12]

Thanks, but you misunderstand my 1/162 reference. I'm no Hawk groupie, but it's just like how Hawk (endlessly) refers to "you'll win 60, you'll lose 60, but how you do depends on what happens with the other 42." So many 1:1 battles in baseball, so many decisions that not only impact what happens later in the game, but what happens later in the week, month, and season, that we can all spend a lifetime second, third, and infinity guessing everything if we're so inclined. That's the nature of baseball. EVERY team deals with countless moments just like this (NOT just the White Sox -- most of us just follow the White Sox though). EVERY manager makes decisions that turn-out differently than how he hoped they would (NOT just Robin Ventura -- the same happened with Connie Mack, John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Ozzie Guillen, or insert the name of your favorite manager here). I know 1/162 is important since they all add up, but the entire 162, the entire body-of-a-season's-work is more important.

 

And for the record (since this post stays in the permanent record that is the internet), nobody hated Robin's decision to take out Quintana more than I did. He was breezing, dealing, and totally on auto-pilot. I'm with what I'd imagine to be a majority of people and let Q start the inning, having Reed ready if any trouble arises in the pivotal 9th. However, no way is that the "right way" or the "only way." Plenty of baseball managers and experts (real or in the reality of their own mind) would have done just what Robin did -- graciously accept Q's yeoman work and turn the 9th over to a guy who had been perfect for the year and who has a "chance" to be a long-term stud closer. I wouldn't have done that, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that many baseball lifer's wouldn't have done exactly what baseball lifer Robin Ventura in fact did do.

 

Love talking Sox, but I'm choosing to be angsty about things I think are bigger problems -- like why intentionally handicap yourself to THAT extent by such an extreme Sunday lineup that had so little chance to score more than a run or two, losing momentum from a nice Saturday night win, and ensuring a downer of a long flight home. To this point in the year, I had been happy that Robin was staying away from getting the scrubs in all at the same time (something I thought was one of Ozzie's biggest flaws as a tactical manager). Hopefully today's mess of a game might become a memorable lesson!

 

 

In all fairness, that line-up worked just fine on a weekend against the Mariners and Mr. Millwood.

 

I remember complaining about it and was proven wrong.

 

And hitters like Lillibridge, Fukudome and Flowers with big/long swings can't just get their timing playing once ever 10-14 days.

 

Lillibridge actually hit two balls on the button for outs (one an amazing catch by Ethier, the other right at 2B) and had a hit, so he looked about as well as he has all season.

 

 

[CyAcosta41]

In all fairness, that line-up worked just fine on a weekend against the Mariners and Mr. Millwood.

 

I remember complaining about it and was proven wrong.

 

And hitters like Lillibridge, Fukudome and Flowers with big/long swings can't just get their timing playing once ever 10-14 days.

 

Lillibridge actually hit two balls on the button for outs (one an amazing catch by Ethier, the other right at 2B) and had a hit, so he looked about as well as he has all season.

 

The Bridge did look as good as he has looked all season. And you are correct that these long swing guys (and Lillibridge, Fuku, and Flowers are all long swing guys -- part of the reason why I'm not crazy about any of them as bench players) need more consistent at-bats to get their timing.

 

But while it did work earlier this year against Millwood, and while it worked from time to time in the MANY times that Ozzie pulled that stunt, it's not at all likely to work on any given day, and the bigger issue (I think) is that there is absolutely no reason to trot out the JV squad, almost en masse, for a varsity game. Play the bench guys a little more often perhaps, but not Lilli, Flowers, Danks, and Escobar ALL in the same game. Or stated differently, why on Earth sit ALL of DeAza, Konerko, AJ, and Alexei on the same day?!?!? Rest one, maybe two ... but only rarely, rarely three starters, and never, ever four (IMO, pretty much playing the game with one-hand tied behind your back).

[greg775]

Thanks, but you misunderstand my 1/162 reference. I'm no Hawk groupie, but it's just like how Hawk (endlessly) refers to "you'll win 60, you'll lose 60, but how you do depends on what happens with the other 42." So many 1:1 battles in baseball, so many decisions that not only impact what happens later in the game, but what happens later in the week, month, and season, that we can all spend a lifetime second, third, and infinity guessing everything if we're so inclined. That's the nature of baseball. EVERY team deals with countless moments just like this (NOT just the White Sox -- most of us just follow the White Sox though). EVERY manager makes decisions that turn-out differently than how he hoped they would (NOT just Robin Ventura -- the same happened with Connie Mack, John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Ozzie Guillen, or insert the name of your favorite manager here). I know 1/162 is important since they all add up, but the entire 162, the entire body-of-a-season's-work is more important.

 

And for the record (since this post stays in the permanent record that is the internet), nobody hated Robin's decision to take out Quintana more than I did. He was breezing, dealing, and totally on auto-pilot. I'm with what I'd imagine to be a majority of people and let Q start the inning, having Reed ready if any trouble arises in the pivotal 9th. However, no way is that the "right way" or the "only way." Plenty of baseball managers and experts (real or in the reality of their own mind) would have done just what Robin did -- graciously accept Q's yeoman work and turn the 9th over to a guy who had been perfect for the year and who has a "chance" to be a long-term stud closer. I wouldn't have done that, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that many baseball lifer's wouldn't have done exactly what baseball lifer Robin Ventura in fact did do.

 

Love talking Sox, but I'm choosing to be angsty about things I think are bigger problems -- like why intentionally handicap yourself to THAT extent by such an extreme Sunday lineup that had so little chance to score more than a run or two, losing momentum from a nice Saturday night win, and ensuring a downer of a long flight home. To this point in the year, I had been happy that Robin was staying away from getting the scrubs in all at the same time (something I thought was one of Ozzie's biggest flaws as a tactical manager). Hopefully today's mess of a game might become a memorable lesson!

 

Another great post, but we've lost 12 of 16 which is very very s***ty baseball.

Sox are in trouble.

[caulfield12]

Another great post, but we've lost 12 of 16 which is very very s***ty baseball.

Sox are in trouble.

 

 

If we had gone 4-12, we'd be at .500.

 

In actuality, we went 17-5 to get to 8 games over .500 and have now lost 8 of 12.

 

 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

If we had gone 4-12, we'd be at .500.

 

He didn't say we have gone 4-12, he said we have lost 12 of 16. Can't you even read? JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZ!!!!