greg775 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 06:47 PM) That's not what I'm saying. I think losing Buerhle was the final straw for many people with season tickets as far as renewal and hurt pre season sales. This is very very true. The Sox did things to themselves that hurt from a ticket selling standpoint. Letting Mark was was huge. People on this board or some people tend to devalue the known players and want those who have not been around a while. Fans who go to the games loved Mark. Edited June 17, 2012 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:47 PM) That's not what I'm saying. I think losing Buerhle was the final straw for many people with season tickets as far as renewal and hurt pre season sales. Yeah, I just skimmed through your post and misunderstood. The season ticket holders left because we weren't winning and they were sick of the soap opera, that's my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:50 PM) This is very very true. The Sox did things to themselves that hurt from a ticket selling standpoint. Letting Mark was was huge. Failing to win the division the last 2 years was much, much bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:38 PM) Frankly, I don't believe any of that. The last straw was being a below .500 team last year. As a former season ticketholder, it was my final straw, and I had them long before 2005. I don't think I am far different than most. It seemed to confirm to me they were going into a total rebuild which I didn't want to spend that kind of money to watch, which also kills advanced sales. I think 1K a game may even be low. As Turns out, this season is far more enjoyable than I ever would have imagined, and while I miss my seats, I've been able to get real good deals and have still gone to about 10 games. It was sort of nice not "having" to go to games in April or May when it was not so nice outside. The only downside is if they make the playoffs, I miss out, but I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to jump right back in if that appears a certainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 09:43 AM) Every season he goes on the DL for some issue or another. blisters, circulation, shoulder issues. And now he gets paid and the guy is talking to Dr Yocum, and you want to say he is durable? Screw that. he is a disappointment. He has been for a long time. Last year was basically his contract year and he had his worst professional season since his rookie season, and only pitched 170 innings. Looks like he is right on track to do that again this season Danks arrived in 2007. Since he joined the team Buehrle has been just as average as Danks (Minus the Perfect Game + of course) I voted they should have let them both go. Also, when we talk about Mark in the whole "should we have kept him" thing, can we just stop talking about him being a fan favorite and being a guy everyone liked? Yes those are good qualities but have nothing to do with his on field performance and in no way should that factor into baseball decisions. If you do you don't know how to run a franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:54 PM) As a former season ticketholder, it was my final straw, and I had them long before 2005. I don't think I am far different than most. It seemed to confirm to me they were going into a total rebuild which I didn't want to spend that kind of money to watch, which also kills advanced sales. I think 1K a game may even be low. As Turns out, this season is far more enjoyable than I ever would have imagined, and while I miss my seats, I've been able to get real good deals and have still gone to about 10 games. It was sort of nice not "having" to go to games in April or May when it was not so nice outside. The only downside is if they make the playoffs, I miss out, but I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to jump right back in if that appears a certainty. There's the key though...all of your points are premised on the concept that they weren't going into a rebuilding year. They were. Trading John Danks for middling prospects would have been the same message, and then we'd be stuck paying Mark Buehrle an enormous amount of money that even the Marlins think is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:47 PM) That's not what I'm saying. I think losing Buerhle was the final straw for many people with season tickets as far as renewal and hurt pre season sales. No. Zero effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:50 PM) Yeah, I just skimmed through your post and misunderstood. The season ticket holders left because we weren't winning and they were sick of the soap opera, that's my guess. Ozzie left, so the soap opera was over. I actually loved the Ventura signing from the start. I did initially state we would not renew unless both KW and Ozzie were gone, but we would have most likely renewed had the Sox been seen as "all in" again. At least looked like they were aiming to win the division. Obviously having Buerhle would have helped, and I don't blame them for not giving him $58 million. I just wish they made him an offer, they weren't tapped out. He basically said he would have taken less. How much less we will never know, so any of this is speculative, but I'm sure vendors are glad he's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:59 PM) No. Zero effect. That just confirms that 1000 is low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) Ozzie left, so the soap opera was over. I actually loved the Ventura signing from the start. I did initially state we would not renew unless both KW and Ozzie were gone, but we would have most likely renewed had the Sox been seen as "all in" again. At least looked like they were aiming to win the division. Obviously having Buerhle would have helped, and I don't blame them for not giving him $58 million. I just wish they made him an offer, they weren't tapped out. He basically said he would have taken less. How much less we will never know, so any of this is speculative, but I'm sure vendors are glad he's gone. See now you've changed the standard though. It's not just spending another $12 million+ this year, it's being "all in" again. That means committing the money to make sure that the 3b hole didn't exist, that we had better OF depth, that we had a better bench, that we had more veterans in the bullpen. You've gone from asking for Buehrle to asking why the Sox didn't spend another $30 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:56 PM) There's the key though...all of your points are premised on the concept that they weren't going into a rebuilding year. They were. Trading John Danks for middling prospects would have been the same message, and then we'd be stuck paying Mark Buehrle an enormous amount of money that even the Marlins think is crazy. I actually, and you can go back and search my posts, was never as high on Detroit as the majority of humans. I thought the Sox had a chance coming into this season even without Buerhle. Back in December, when Buerhle left, I didn't feel they had any chance. One reason attendance is low is the Sox had a bad year last year and this winter made no splash. Really, the only hope was bounce back seasons from a lot of guys. That doesn't sell tickets, and it keeps you from selling tickets. The Sox weren't changing much, but losing their most reliable pitcher, whether he's an ace or not. That cost them some sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:00 PM) That just confirms that 1000 is low. You wrote something silly and got called on it. Big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 02:05 PM) I actually, and you can go back and search my posts, was never as high on Detroit as the majority of humans. I thought the Sox had a chance coming into this season even without Buerhle. Back in December, when Buerhle left, I didn't feel they had any chance. One reason attendance is low is the Sox had a bad year last year and this winter made no splash. Really, the only hope was bounce back seasons from a lot of guys. That doesn't sell tickets, and it keeps you from selling tickets. The Sox weren't changing much, but losing their most reliable pitcher, whether he's an ace or not. That cost them some sales. Again, you've spelled out the catch 22 here. If the Sox went into the season with Viciedo, De Aza, and Morel in their lineup, people wouldn't look at this team and think "This team is set to compete right now". If you wanted to field a team ready to challenge for the AL this year, you wouldn't give any of those guys a starting spot coming in to this year, you'd spend money to try to put someone better in those positions. Telling the season ticket holders to stay, they're competing again this year...that's a $130 million+ payroll, and it requires blocking/getting rid of question mark guys who might give you something but who you can't count on (Alejandro). Even if you kept Buehrle, you're in the same boat...most of the season ticket holders would have no confidence in the team coming in to this year, except they'd have a $15 million a year pitcher taking up even more of their payroll. You're right it doesn't sell tickets, but that's what the failure of last year left us with. When you go all in and lose, you're out and you have to start again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I view John and Mark as almost the same pitcher. In that situation, I will always choose the younger one over the older one. The first 1/3 of the year in the first season of this decision, it looks like we may have been wrong. I am sure there are other 1/3's of seasons where it will look like we were clearly right. I'd have let them both go, however. I would have dealt John and let Mark walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) I view John and Mark as almost the same pitcher. In that situation, I will always choose the younger one over the older one. The first 1/3 of the year in the first season of this decision, it looks like we may have been wrong. I am sure there are other 1/3's of seasons where it will look like we were clearly right. I'd have let them both go, however. I would have dealt John and let Mark walk. I'd be willing to bet that if there were any offers for Danks that were close to reasonable or solid, they'd have moved him. I also don't think anyone was willing to give up more than a Zach Stewart level for a pitcher 1 year away from free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 05:54 PM) As a former season ticketholder, it was my final straw, and I had them long before 2005. I don't think I am far different than most. It seemed to confirm to me they were going into a total rebuild which I didn't want to spend that kind of money to watch, which also kills advanced sales. I think 1K a game may even be low. As Turns out, this season is far more enjoyable than I ever would have imagined, and while I miss my seats, I've been able to get real good deals and have still gone to about 10 games. It was sort of nice not "having" to go to games in April or May when it was not so nice outside. The only downside is if they make the playoffs, I miss out, but I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to jump right back in if that appears a certainty. Dick Allen is the most reasonable poster on this site ... period. He is the guy you'd most want to go get a beer with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:47 PM) I'd be willing to bet that if there were any offers for Danks that were close to reasonable or solid, they'd have moved him. I also don't think anyone was willing to give up more than a Zach Stewart level for a pitcher 1 year away from free agency. I don't know about that, but I do agree with you in principle..I don't think any of the offers were blowing Kenny away. So instead of dealing with the circus of whether to sign him or trade him this season, they just signed him. I can live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 06:56 PM) I don't know about that, but I do agree with you in principle..I don't think any of the offers were blowing Kenny away. So instead of dealing with the circus of whether to sign him or trade him this season, they just signed him. I can live with that. Yep, makes sense. Also gave some sense of continuity to the rotation with Floyd likely gone after this year, Peavy a huge question mark and Sale being converted to a starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) Dick Allen is the most reasonable poster on this site ... period. He is the guy you'd most want to go get a beer with. Greg, is getting a beer with a guy your main qualification with someone? As for most reasonable, I nominate Kyyle for that, because he has to police us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59th street Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 12:10 PM) Danks isn't getting paid all that much this year. Next year is when the big bucks start rolling in. Its always a gamble to give any pitcher 4 or 5 or even more years. So far it looks like a mistake, but judging it now is so silly its beyond ridiculous. I wish the Sox brought back Buerhle. He was willing to take less than he received, yet there was no offer, and considering they were trying to throw some money Soler's way, its apparent the checking account wasn't as low as they have expertly have it perceived. But signing Danks is a decent move. You win with pitching. He's young, and up until now has been very healthy. He had a circulation problem several years ago that was cleared up quickly, and last year had a rib cage injury. So the injury concern was minimal. Except for his rookie year, when he was shut down, and last year's trip to the DL, he's made at least 32 starts each season. He's been a horse. I still can't get over how many posters wanted a total rebuild, yet have absolutely zero patience. s*** happens. Hopefully, there is no damage in Danks' shoulder. If there is not, there's no reason to think he won't be a real good pitcher the next several seasons. 100% agree. The most vocal posters do not have patience for a 9 inning game that does not go our way! Love Buehrle but he choose to take the $ Miami offered. Danks should outperform Buehrle from this year forward over the course of their respective contracts based on age, stuff and potential for positive continued development. GO GO WHITE SOX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 17, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) As for most reasonable, I nominate Kyyle for that, because he has to police us. Agreed. I'd also like to have a beer with him. He seems to be one of those guys who has a unique perspective on life. Very underrated poster. Edited June 17, 2012 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I think Kyle is f***ing bats*** crazy....so I'd like to do whiskey shots with him over peyote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Whiskey, peyote, beer. This thread is going to be thread of the year very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) There weren't many arguing we should have kept Edwin Jackson instead of either one, but that might have been the better one year move (maybe one year plus a mutual option, yeah, that would have been hard to pull off with his agent wanting to set him up for the 3-4-5 year deal) just to see where things were in another year...yet not giving up the ability to compete at the same time. Or maybe Roy Oswalt. Edwin and Cooper seemed to have a pretty good partnership. Still think Danks at those dollars was the more logical sign than Buehrle. Heck, you can argue the Sox knew that someone would overpay (especially a team like the Marlins) and they might eventually bring him back at bargain-basement prices in terms of his contract being 25-50% subsdized by another team. As a season ticket holder, I wouldn't have had any problem with Viciedo and DeAza being starters....they actually would been two of the biggest reasons for wanting to watch this team in 2012, having an injection of new blood/energy/excitement into the line-up. Morel, well, you can understand why they weren't going to replace him after the way he played the final 6 weeks. As much as losing Buehrle is being blamed for the falloff, it probably has more to do with the KW/Ozzie feud, not making the playoffs for 3 years running and the disappointing play from Peavy/Dunn/Rios and Beckham, who at one point looked like he would be our version of Derek Jeter and came into 2012 another bad season from being out of the organization. Just all the booing and negative feelings around the team last year...they weren't very fun to follow at all, even 2007 was much more fun from a fan perspective despite the Sox "sort of" being in the division race as late as middle August. Edited June 17, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxmaniac! Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Greg, is getting a beer with a guy your main qualification with someone? As for most reasonable, I nominate Kyyle for that, because he has to police us. that's actually the same qualification ozzie used when making the lineup card and assigning positions. he may not have been able to play CF anymore, but god damnit would getting a beer with ken griffey jr be sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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